2013 Mobius LSV - Oil Leak

[rje-3]

My 2013 Mobius LSV has developed an oil leak somewhere. I am the second owner and purchased the boat earlier this year from a responsible owner. I have receipts for all work done on the boat and the previous owner was meticulous in caring for it. Unfortunately, neither he nor I realized I only had 10 days to transfer the 3-year Indmar engine warranty. So the engine is not under warranty.

The boat had 85 hours on it when I purchased it in the Spring. It was winterized with an oil change in October and then summarized in April. It didn't see the water from October until I put it in in mid-May.

After about four hours running it over three weekends I noted a flashing check engine light. That was accompanied by what I perceived to be low oil pressure on the gauge. I got the boat back to the dock and noted that the oil was 1.5 qts low. I also checked the oil pressure reading against the Indmar manual and it was in the normal range, but at the low end. After adding oil, everything was back to normal with the engine. The motor ran fine the whole time.

As I got to about 10 hours on the boat this year the flashing check engine light came on again. Once again, it was low oil; this time another 1.5 qts. While the boat was in the water I also noted that the bilge pump kicked on for the first time that I know of, pumping out some oily water. Since I needed some work done on my lift and the boat was approaching 100 hours, I figured it best to take it to the Moomba dealer for a look over.

The Moomba dealer said the oil loss was outside of what they would expect, even for a less than 100 hour boat. They looked it over and could not find any obvious source of the leak (i.e. oil filter, drain plug, etc.). They then did a lake test, figuring that it will be clear to them when the boat is under power. They found nothing obvious with the lake test either. They did, however, note that there was a little dampness near the rear of the engine. They were expecting something in the area of the rear main seal or oil pan, but didn't see it.


The dealer now plans to put some dye in the oil and then pull the engine to see if they can pin point the source of the leak. Of course at this point I'm into the work for about $2,000, with no guarantee that they can find the problem. With losing that much oil one would expect something obvious, which has both myself and the dealer puzzled. I have the standard Indmar Assault 330 engine. The boat runs fine otherwise and the previous owner had no issues with excessive oil use. There is no damage to the boat, engine or transmission. The dealer said that the symptoms are not indicative of improper winterization.

Any thoughts on this would be appreciated.

[ranger098]

Wow, sorry to hear this. Since you say it bilged out some oily water, have you noticed any oil in your bilge area? I am wondering if it's maybe bad engine assembly or overheating (thus warping) of the engine and it's burning the oil rather than leaking...

One thing i would say is i hope they cut you some slack on transferring the warranty and help you out.. if it is indeed a warranty issue. I hate technicalities like that, and if they force you to spend thousands on a warranty issue just because you didnt transfer it in time, i would be sickened.

Curious to see how this turns out...

[rje-3]

No slack on the warranty. The dealer called Indmar and they indicated it was only transferrable in the first ten days after a change in ownership. Even then it also requires a detailed inspection at the dealer, which costs $300 and a $200 transfer fee paid to Indmar ($500 total cost). The dealer said at this point it would fail the warranty inspection and they wouldn't cover the problem since it was existing. Both the previous owner and I thought the warranty automatically transferred, but it doesn't and the Indmar manual does state it correctly. So if you don't read the manual immediately after buying a used boat, you risk being in this situation. Lesson learned.

Since the previous owner is reliable (other than the warranty issue) and has excellent records, it's hard to tie this problem to any single event. He says it wasn't using oil excessively all of last year. If it had, he was under warranty and would have immediately taken it in for warranty service. In fact, he did have warranty service this spring on the wake plate actuator when it was being summerized. It was at the dealer last October and nothing unusual was noted in the records. So if it wasn't related to winterization or the oil change (i.e. loose filter), it has to be some random part failure. I'm hoping they at least find the problem. I'm definitely hoping it's not a warped engine and I never saw an over temp or high oil pressure on the gauges.

[ranger098]

Hmm, well let's hope it's something fairly simple to fix. Keep us posted..... Oh and welcome to the forum! Moombas are sweet boats, despite your experience thus far..

[mmandley]

My money is on the Rear Main seal.

If you the boat isn't leaking when its sitting still, as in nothing in your bilge, then it has to leak while its running. If it leaked from the heads, oil pan, intake then you should be able to find oil residue, leaking from the rear main, you will find oil in the bell housing where the transmission connects. If you can find a place stick a mico camera scope in and it should have oil residue.

Also dye should tell the dealer where a leak is with/out pulling the engine. They could just run it on a fake a lake and watch for the dye to leak from the engine into your bilge. 1.5 quarts is pretty excessive in a 10 hour period.

Personally I would put the dye in myself and start the boat at home, using a fake a lake, then let it idle and check it for leaks after an hour. Most likely its not even leaking until the engine is hot.

[brain_rinse]

Agree with mike. Check the remote oil filter connections on the block as well.

[DOCDRS]

How did you get enough water into the bilge for the pump to come on? Is your dripless shot? 1.5 quarts is a lot of oil in 10 hours

[tnbrooks01]

Just random thoughts while drinking morning coffee.

330 vs 345? how is the boat propped and what are your normal activity RPM ranges?
How are you using the boat? Are you wakeboarding or surfing with heavy weight? I know I put a boat through a much bigger workout than most others so I burn more oil than most people.

I have had both the 325/330assault and the 345. Noticeable difference in oil burn with the 325/330 vs the 345.

It takes very little oil in the bilge to make bilge water look oily. Ie: spillage from remote oil filter, drips from funnel after filling.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[rje-3]

Update:

Dealer put the dye in and ran the motor for an hour in the shop. No leaks were found using the dye. The engine was then removed and they still found no leaks with dye. They saw a few steaks of oil down the side of the engine near the filler cap, but it did not have dye in it. No leak at the oil pan or around the rear main seal.

They checked all engine parameters and everything checks normal. The boat ran perfect for them on the water and in the shop. All plugs were pulled and they were not fouled with oil. They checked the exhaust and found no oil in there. They told me if the oil was getting into the catalytic converter it would go bad quickly and it appears fine right now.

The dealer also checked the error codes and the only thing that came up was a low oil pressure incident which coincided with the first time I got the flashing check engine light after about 3-4 put on the boat.

So the dealer is stumped. They plan to talk to Indmar Monday to see if they have any suggestions before they put the engine back in the boat. There's no disagreement that using essentially 4 quarts (they added 2qts) of oil in 10 hours is not right, even for a boat under 100 hrs. So the oil has to be going somewhere, they just can't see it. Barring them finding something, they said there's not much else they can do ... other than hand me the boat back with the bill.

In answer to a question, the boat has the Acme 1235 Prop (14.5x14.25). I only used the boat for about 10 hours, primarily at or below 21 mph. My son wakeboards and we did some slow speed cruising. The previous owner did do some wake surfing, but that's not allowed on my lake. I do have custom ballast bags, but have not run the pumps to fill that at all. So all of my time is without using ballast.

The bilge pump came on when the boat had been sitting in the water for about four hours. It is usually up on a lift when not on the water, so I had never seen it come on before that.

I do have receipts for past service and they had full service and look over of the engine at a Moomba Dealer at 20 hrs. There were also oil changes service at 50 hrs and 84 hours, which is the last oil change before I bought the boat. It has 94 hours now.

I Appreciate all of the comments/suggestions.

[z28ke]

Wow, that's a damn mystery then. With no leaks I'd say stuck PCV (assuming it has one, haven't taken the time to notice on my 325) but there would be evidence via oil in the exhaust manifolds and oily plugs. So it's not burning it or leaking it, mystery.?!?! I wonder if there is any where it could mix in with the raw water and escape further down the exhaust manifolds?

[z28ke]

I'm wondering if it froze at some point and cracked an internal water jacket, but then you'd have water mixing in the oil so scratch that. Just thinking out loud here....

[DOCDRS]

did you check the dipstick the first time you had it out after the oil change? was the level to the full line on the dip stick? maybe the engine was not run after the oil change and once run the filter took up 3/4 qt. But does not account for all 4qts. If your bilge came on and you cannot account for the water then you may have a leak check dripless seal , exhaust thru hull fitting flange,

[rje-3]

The last oil change was in October by the previous owner. I don't know if he ran it or not. I do know that they summerized the boat in Paril and did run it then. It showed full when the boat went into the water in May.

The whole saga has been perplexing. Talking to the service manager we almost joked that at this point once the boat gets put back together it will probably never leak again.

Regardless of what they find or not, there is no question the boat is either using or losing more oil than it should. I guess I should be happy the engine isn't damaged in some way. Of course there could be an underlying internal problem, but you would think that would show up in some diagnostics. We'll see what Indmar says tomorrow. Thanks to everyone for the ideas and suggestions.

[rje-3]

Had an interesting input about my oil loss problem.

So this boat was originally in Colorado and used there for two seasons at 6,000ft above sea level. I then bought it and towed it down to reality in the Midwest at 1,000' above sea level, where I am using it.

The question I got was could your boat have been setup for high altitude and it is not efficient for your current operating regime and is now burning more oil than what it should? The second part was that could there have been something internal to the engine that was damaged by the road trip from 6,000' to 1,000' (i.e. as the air pressure increased could it have blown a seal, gasket, line or something else?

The previous owner did say he had a "high altitude prop" on the boat, although I don't know if that's how Moomba characterizes the Acme 1235 14.5x14.25 prop. When I look this prop up it characterizes it as a good prop for wake boarding and wake surfing, with a ballast.

Winterization (including the last oil change) and summerization were done in Colorado. The tow back east was done over about 12 hours, so it was a gradual trip downhill. I can't find the words "altitude" or "elevation" in the 2013 Moomba Operator's Manual. The Indmar manual does mention in a couple of places "adjusting engine for high altitude," but doesn't say what that entails.

So it is possible that the boat setup for high altitude operation (i.e. engine settings, spark plugs, prop, etc.) is now inefficient for low altitude operations; leading to burning more oil? Further, could the pressure increase going from 6,000' to 1,000' altitude be the source of some fluids in your bilge area; and perhaps even be unrelated to using more oil than normal? The atmospheric pressure about doubles as you go from 6,000' to 1,000', could this have caused some fluids to be expelled into your bilge area?

I'm not an engine expert, but I suppose either or both of the theories are possible. I wouldn't expect much to change on a fuel-injected engine, but I suppose there could be some tweaks made that affect performance. The dealer is not finding any new fluids in the cleaned out bilge area, either during a lake run at speed or in the shop; which a one-time loss of fluids might explain. Engine readings are normal across the board and they can't find anything obvious anywhere. So it's possible that the engine is burning the oil and the fluids in the bilge were there for the past; either from overfill, spillage or expelled as the pressure changed.

Anyone have any thoughts or experience with high altitude setup and whether it could affect the performance of a boat or be the cause of my oil loss problem?

[rje-3]

OK - Perhaps the final update on this problem. The bottom line is that the dealer can't find any explanation for the excess use or loss of oil. They are putting the boat back together, doing one last water test to look things over and then handing the boat back to me. In case it helps someone else, here are the latest highlights provided to me by the service manager yesterday:

+ They checked the dripless packing and the exhaust flanges and they appear to be ok. Will be rechecked again during the lake test.
+ If a previous overheat condition caused a warped engine, that would be evident in a compression or cylinder leakage test; both of which checked good. There was also no trouble code registered for an overheat condition on the engine.
+ Bad piston rings would show up in a cylinder leakage test, which checked good.
+ If the boat was burning excess oil it should be picked up by the oxygen sensors monitoring the exhaust system and trigger a trouble code. This is not the case.
+ A Stuck PCV valve could cause excessive crankcase pressure and would cause it to burn oil or push oil out through one of the seals. Neither problem was found on the engine and the PCV valve was checked and is working properly. They also do not see excessive crankcase pressure.
+ This engine does not have a remote oil filter.
+ There is no reason to explore the bell housing area since the engine was pulled and technicians could look directly at the rear main seal.
+ With dye in the oil, they did not see any leakage from the rear main seal, oil pan gasket, camshaft rear plug, rear oil passage plugs, front crankshaft seal, timing chain cover, crankshaft position sensor, oil pressure sending unit, valve covers, oil filter or intake manifold.
+ There are no settings changed on the engine for high altitude as the computer makes adjustments on its own for atmospheric pressure changes. They will check the prop for max RPM and make a recommendation on whether or not that should be changed, but they believe it is fine based on how I am loading and using the boat.
+ They talked with Indmar and went over everything done so far. The only recommendations were to do one additional cylinder leakage test and to change all of the fluids. The dealer wants to change from Pennzoil to Mercruiser oil.
+ Indmar and all of the service tech's in the shop believe that they have done everything possible to diagnose the problem, short of disassembling the engine. No one believes that would yield much because there are no indications of any specific problem.

There you have it. I'm just shocked there is no explanation for using or losing about 5 qts of oil in only ten hours of operation. This is a fact, backed up by the trouble code for low oil pressure and the flashing check engine light. I believe the stated capacity of the crankcase is only 5.5 qts. Perhaps this is the higher than normal oil use during the first 100 hours noted in the manuals. Even the service experts agree, however, that is excessive even for the first 100 hours. So I guess we'll see how the boat runs and monitor the oil daily to see what the trend is. I'm keeping my fingers crossed this was a one-time event that has been corrected either on its own or by the tightening up of everything on the engine as they've worked on it. I will post a post-lake test situation report for anyone who is interested.

[brain_rinse]

Very interested to see if this is now resolved. Good luck!

[ranger098]

my money is on head gasket, oil getting out water jacket in exhaust. only happens under load so they dont have the issue when they pulled the engine.

[rje-3]

My understanding is that if it was a failed head gasket or bad rings those would be detected on the compression test they did on each cylinder. They had good readings from this test and all others to date.

[moombadaze]

any oil like residue in the exhaust tips, or muffler ?

[rje-3]

any oil like residue in the exhaust tips, or muffler ?

None noted when I removed the boat from the water. The service tech's also noted nothing when they did the lake test and then when they did another run in the shop for an hour. They also didn't note any oil in the exhaust manifold drain hose. The service manager told me that if oil was getting into the exhaust system it should be detected by sensors and would also trash the catalytic converter pretty quickly. I would think that this could be easily detected out of the water, unless it only happens under high power settings. I'm not sure how much power they can simulate out of water. Also, I would anticipate that the dye placed in the oil would show up somewhere if it was producing residue in the exhaust system.

I plan to stop by the shop today to see how they are doing getting things put back together. I'm just hoping the boat runs well and I can get it back on the water for another couple of months. I'm not looking forward to seeing the bill for a problem that wasn't really diagnosed or resolved.

[rdlangston13]

I think if it only happened under a load you would also notice a significant amount of blue smoke coming out of your exhaust while underway.

[DOCDRS]

I would monitor the oil level before and after each use

[rje-3]

Update:

I received the boat back last Saturday and ran it for about six hours on the lake over Saturday to Monday. The oil checked at the top of the normal range before and after each use, so there is no evidence of unusual oil consumption/loss at this point. All engine readings were normal and nothing unusual noted. The boat seems to run fine all around.

The bilge water leak was found during the lake test. It was a bad seal around where the wires to the wake plate actuator go through the transom. There was no oil in the bilge area this time.

About the only thing unusual they found during work and the lake tests was a difference between Tach RPM and their digital tester (CDS). Here are the details of what they told me. During the lake test with a light load (2 people) they reached a max speed of 39.6 MPH, with a Tach reading of 5600RPM and a CDS reading of 5268RPM. According to the dealer, the CDS is more accurate and the normal range for this engine at WOT is 4600-5200RPM. Based on this they assess that the boat did not hit the over rev limit and the prop configuration is good for general use and wakeboarding. They did want me to know that the Tach is reading high and to not worry much about it unless it goes much over 5600RPM.

At this point I have a working boat. It was a costly search for an oil leak that they never found. I guess as long as it continues to work normally, I will count myself lucky. The additional amount I invested over the normal 100 hour inspection was probably worth it in the long run to have confidence everything was checked and is working. Let's hope it stays that way and that there are no new problems generated by pulling the engine out to look at it.

[brain_rinse]

That is great news. You've got an awesome boat that should work well for you now. What lake do you boat on in Nebraska?

[ranger098]

glad to hear, pray you dont see the check engine light again.....