Whine when engine running

[Jason05216]

This winter I installed Exile tower speakers, an Exile 15.4 amp and a ZLD. EVerything was fine until I started the boat. There is a whine coming thru the speakers. It's much more noticeable in the cabin speakers than it is on the tower speakers but it is coming thru them as well.

I've read several of the other threads about noise and think I must have a problem with the way the head unit is powered. The new amp I installed as well as the existing Kicker amp that came in the boat are powered from the distribution block next to the amps. I don't have a picture but it is just like most of the other ones that people have posted on here. The ZLD is powered from this block as well. The neg side for all of those components are returned to that block also. The head unit, it's a Fusion RA205, is powered from a distribution block under the helm and the neg returns there.

I've tried disconnecting the RCA's from the head unit as well as the amps and the whine is still there, that's why I was thinking the problem is in the power. Does it sound like I'm on the right track if I run the power and the neg to the other distribution block? Any input on this is appreciated.

I'm curious why the wiring from helm distribution block wouldn't cause a problem with the original setup but does after adding an amp?

[csm]

Not an expert, but I had the same problem. The ground from my head unit was in a bundle of wires and I couldn't really tell where it led to. I cut it and rewired the negative directly to the distro block that my amps were using and it solved the issue.

[viking]

sounds like a ground issue

[mmandley]

Yes its a grounding issue, whats really happening is the noise is being transmitted from the boats ignition system, other electrical system. The noise travels on the Ground circuit.

Once the noise reaches the boats common ground, anything connected to it will allow the noise to travel, Your Head Unit is grounded to this. Moving the ground to the stereo Distro, as long as the Stereo Distro is grounded right to the Stereo Bank of batteries will eliminate this problem in most cases.

[Jason05216]

Yes its a grounding issue, whats really happening is the noise is being transmitted from the boats ignition system, other electrical system. The noise travels on the Ground circuit.

Once the noise reaches the boats common ground, anything connected to it will allow the noise to travel, Your Head Unit is grounded to this. Moving the ground to the stereo Distro, as long as the Stereo Distro is grounded right to the Stereo Bank of batteries will eliminate this problem in most cases.

Any idea why this would be a problem now when it wasn't before I added the new gear? I didn't change anything with the head unit.

[mmandley]

Because the old gear wasn't as sensitive as the new gear.

I know in my LSV and my MOJO I had no whine before the stereo upgrades but after I had wine unless I got all the grounds off the main buss in the boat.

There are tons of threads talking about the same issues with the grounds.

[David Analog]

Any idea why this would be a problem now when it wasn't before I added the new gear? I didn't change anything with the head unit.

Jason,
All grounds plus all positives of all boats are modulated by noise that is created by the boat's electrical system....such as the alternator, ignition module, fans, pumps, etc. That is completely normal. What is not normal is when the noise specifically gets into the signal path.
This is normally caused by a poor relationship between two or more audio components. It's the same reason for noise with home audio/video equipment when two components access different ground potentials from different circuits. The voltage differential will seek ground by any means necessary. Ground finds its way home. Unfortunately if the easiest path is between the audio components you will have noise.
Normally this is easily remedied by removing the HU B+ (all B+) & grounds from the helm buss and/or helm wiring harness, and redirect them by having those respectively access the B+ and ground at the identical distribution blocks that supply the amplifiers.
However, for this to be the true problem....the RCA connections would have to be intact. The RCAs are what completes the noise-causing ground loop. So that is odd that you would still have noise with the RCAs disconnected from the amplifier inputs, as you stated above.
Double check this again to be absolutely certain.
Make sure that no amplifier chassis is grounded, per an amplifier mounting screw, etc.
Connect one separate test wire & speaker only per amplifier to eliminate the possibility of a shorted or mis-wired speaker wire, but while the amplifier RCA inputs are still disconnected.
That's a good start. You have to work sequentially to eliminate one component and one interconnect relationship at a time. Once you obtain a status change you can narrow your focus and the problem is likely resolved at that point.

[MLA]

The new amp I installed as well as the existing Kicker amp that came in the boat are powered from the distribution block next to the amps.

IMO, the OEM cable supplying that BUS bar, is too small to support the 2 amps you now have, same with the ground stud. I would suggest A) upgrading the trunk line to 1/0 or B) home running the new amp's 4ga cabling right to the switch, which proper circuit protection in place. Run its ground battery direct, or upgrade the ground feed to the stud to 1/0 as well.

David's post has you on the right path for tracking the root cause of the noise.

[kaneboats]

BTW, my buddy once had a whine while the engine was running so he divorced her.

[Jason05216]

Pretty sure that's not where this whine is coming from :)

[Jason05216]

Thanks for the input. I'm going to work on it this weekend, the boat's not at home anymore. I'll let you know what I find out.

[13mobiusLSV]

I just went through this same exact issue and still fighting it to some degree. We isolated the head unit and just plugged the iPod into the Amps as well as separating the rca's from the remote wire. We also re grounded the head unit. While it helped mitigate some interference when the boat was running we had the most success of reducing it by turning the gains down on the Amp and up on the ZLD. The whine is still there but at a barely noticeable level. My OCD notices it so I haven't given up on it yet. Brian @ exile is fantastic for help. I've been gone too much for work lately mess with it, and I don't want to go bug Brian again just yet, ha.

[Jason05216]

I was able to work on this over the weekend but wasn't able to get it resolved. Here's what I found and did.

I originally thought that the ground from the head unit went to a bus under the helm but after really digging into the wiring I found that the ground went back to the original Kicker amp and piggybacked on the ground for the amp. I moved it to the bus that all the other stereo equipment landed on. This did not change the whining while the engine is running. I checked all my connections and everything is good.

What's the best way to isolate components? Both amps and the ZLD are turned on by the head unit. Can I run the turn on wire from an ACC switch rather than the head unit so I can get it out of the system to test?

Mike...was your recommendation to change the wiring from the batteries something to help with the whining or just a general recommendation?

[MLA]

I found that the ground went back to the original Kicker amp and piggybacked on the ground for the amp. I moved it to the bus that all the other stereo equipment landed on

The amp is the best place for it, along with the head-unit's B+.


Both amps and the ZLD are turned on by the head unit.

As they should be. The turn-on circuit is almost never a source for noise, unless there is a internal issue with one of the components. Its just a voltage sense circuit to wake up the component. A stand-alone 12v battery thats not tied to the boat would allow for this.


I've read several of the other threads about noise and think I must have a problem with the way the head unit is powered

This is from your original post. Like the kids game goes, "warmer".........Where is the head-unit's yellow B+ and EQ's B+ connected to?

[Jason05216]

I was thinking of using the ACC switch to get the head unit out of the loop rather than a permanent thing.

[Jason05216]

The EQ is connected to the bus where the amps are connected both the B+ and the B-. I didn't trace the yellow wire out of the head unit. I'll have to trace it this weekend. The boat isn't at home now.

[MLA]

for testing purposes, you can just jump into the EQ's B+ for a short term turn on. That should be be "clean" if its sharing the same reference as the amps and head-unit.

once you have determined that all components are wired as they should, then you can begin to determine where the unwanted noise is entering the signal path. Just start with the most likely and obvious. Noise bleeding over from the turn-on would be way down my list.

[Gettin' It]

My system does the same thing! There is no whine except when the motor is running and it doesn't increase with rpm's. It also only happens when the WS eq is in line, if we run direct to the head unit or other source, then there is no whine. WS tech support offered some suggestions but ended making it worse. SO they swapped out the eq, but it still does the same. All of my power wires are ran separate from the rcas and all of my grounds are ran to the batteries. MLA, I know you are local and sound like you know how to fix this. I'd be interested in you doing that, as long as your not disgruntled that I got it done somewhere else first. I can live it with the noise, but sure as hell don't want to waste anymore time with it in the shop hearing "I don't knows".

[Jason05216]

I ran jumper from the ZLD to the amp turn on wire so I could remove the head unit. Still had the whine. Put everything back and remove the power to the ZLD. Still had the whine. Rmoved the power from each amp and still had a whine on the other one. There was no whine when I removed the RCAs. When I turned the tower or cabin all the way up on the ZLD the whine virtually disappeared on that channel. Other thing I noticed is that with the boat running the whine was noticeably less with the battery switch in the off position. Don't know if that means anything it's just something I noticed. Any suggestions?

[mmandley]

Yes its a grounding issue, whats really happening is the noise is being transmitted from the boats ignition system, other electrical system. The noise travels on the Ground circuit.

Once the noise reaches the boats common ground, anything connected to it will allow the noise to travel, Your Head Unit is grounded to this. Moving the ground to the stereo Distro, as long as the Stereo Distro is grounded right to the Stereo Bank of batteries will eliminate this problem in most cases.

I restate this again.

Everything Associated to Stereo POWER and GROUND has to be tied to the Distro Blocks of the Stereo. Not the BOAT.

HU + - has to goto the Stereo Only Battery or Ground.
ZLD + - has to goto the Stereo Only Battery or Ground
Amps + - has to goto the Stereo Only Battery or Ground

The only thing that can be common is the Stereo Toggle Switch, this is because all its doing is sending the Remote Turn on to the HU. HU Remote Turn on goes to a Relay or Tied to your Stereo Amps, ZLD <no more then 4 devices Recommended>

Can you wire the stereo differently? Sure, but with all the stereos I have installed in boats, and there are other members on here I installed for I have never had Whine noise.

This is because I wire all my power, and ground to the Stereo Distro Block, which is grounded right to the Stereo Bank Battery.

In all the boats I have installed they have at least 2 batteries.

1 is stereo, 1 is House.

The Stereo Battery Ground Terminal is connected to the House Battery Ground terminal for charging porpoises, but the Positives are kept separate, the only common point is the Battery Switch to select what battery you want.

If all your grounds and power for all stereo components are wires to the Stereo Distro- Stereo only battery and you have Noice then you have a Bad component.

To TSS this you use your phone and an RCA to 3m jack. You Unhook the HU RCA, Plug this into the ZLD Aux.
Noise Gone? Your HU is the issue.
Noise Yes?
Move the RCA From ZLD to the AMP, by passing the ZLD.
Noise Gone Yes? ZLD is the issue
Noise Gone NO? The AMP is the issue.

You can TSS Each Amp separate

Also if you use your Phone as your music control and you plus the Charger into the Cig lighter you will get noise due to the Charger not being ground shielded.


My Battery Bank, 2 6V Golf Cart style batteries, 1 Marine 12V
IN the Picture the 6V are Green top, you will see each bank has a small Black and Red wires, this is my on board Charger.
Then on Green Top you can see 1 large black cable and Red Cable these go directly to my Stereo Distro Blocks.
Then there is 1 block cable from my Stereo Bank to my House Bank to allow combining all batteries as one.

http://i639.photobucket.com/albums/uu114/mmandley/Stereo/Mojo%20Stereo/GosmsPhoto1361844339396_zps6eb13f5f.jpg (http://s639.photobucket.com/user/mmandley/media/Stereo/Mojo%20Stereo/GosmsPhoto1361844339396_zps6eb13f5f.jpg.html)

[Jason05216]

Mike....all of the components are wired to the stereo distribution bus. I unhooked the HU and connected my phone to the aux in on the ZLD, phone not connected to a charger, still had noise. Hooked phone directly to amp and did not have any noise. Oh yeah learned quickly to make sure volume on phone is turned down when hooking directly to amp. So if I understand you it's probably a problem with the ZLD? I checked the wiring to the stereo dist for the ZLD and see nothing wrong with it. Is it a problem internal on the ZLD?

Sorry if I'm missing something here. I've never done any of this before so this is all new to me. I figure that the problem here is something that someone with experience would see right away. I appreciate the help.

[MLA]

I unhooked the HU and connected my phone to the aux in on the ZLD, phone not connected to a charger, still had noise.

This eliminated the upstream source as in RCA and head-unit.


Hooked phone directly to amp and did not have any noise.

This eliminates everything downstream from amps to speakers.

This leaves the noise to be entering in at the EQ.

As a test, so dont make it a permanent wire job, run a ground lead and a fused lead from the EQ directly to the power cable lugs of your largest amp. The fuse on the B+ goes at the amp end. Just piggy back those wires right under the amps power cables.

Its very rare for noise to leak in from a turn-on circuit, but just for sake of it if there is still noise after the jumper above, tie the EQ's turn-on to the EQ's B+. This is about as clean of an audio source B+ as you can get for both.

Not usre if this has been asked, but is there an RGB controller in use?

[Jason05216]

There is no RGB used in the boat. I can easily move the power for the EQ to the amp it's currently wired to the dist right by the amp.

[mmandley]

There is no RGB used in the boat. I can easily move the power for the EQ to the amp it's currently wired to the dist right by the amp.

MLA thanks for jumping in, I got tired up and haven't been online a few days.

Jason its absolutely a possibility the ZLD is creating noise. It can be a bad RCA cable, bad internal connection. Once you Tie the ZLD into the amp direct as MLA is suggesting, if you have noise, then you need to make one for check.

Turn the power off to the stereo. unhook RCA to 1 amp at a time, see if the noise goes away. This will be testing the RCA to make sure they are not your problem. Normally RCA doesn't have issues but this eliminates it.

Once you do this, if everything points to the ZLD call up Exile talk to Natalie or Brian, tell them what is going on, let them know you TSSed like you have done, they will warranty it.

[Jason05216]

I connected the ZLD to the Kicker amp and still had noise. If anything I had more noise on the cabin speakers that are connected to the Kicker amp than before.

[mmandley]

Good chance you have bad ZLD

[Jason05216]

Still poking around trying to find the source of my noise. It's been hard to work on since the boat is at the lake and when we are there everyone wants to be out doing things rather than watching me dig around in the boat. I've been reading about ground loops etc and have come across ground loop isolators like this http://www.amazon.com/PAC-SNI-1-Noise-Isolator/dp/B000K50HJE/ref=pd_sim_422_3?ie=UTF8&refRID=04R375MXVJXZST208KR9 . Would this help get rid of the whining noise?

[philwsailz]

Other thing I noticed is that with the boat running the whine was noticeably less with the battery switch in the off position. Don't know if that means anything it's just something I noticed. Any suggestions?


My first suggestion is to NEVER run your boat with the battery switch in the OFF position. With a few exceptions, that is an excellent way to blow up your voltage regulator in your charging system.


Phil
Kicker

[Jason05216]

I don't run it this way. Only did this while I was looking for the source of the whine. I was moving the switch around to see if there was any difference from one battery to the next and just noticed this as I went thru the off position. Only had it that way momentarily. I'm always too worried about the batteries dying to run like that.

Any thoughts on those ground loop isolators?

[philwsailz]

Still poking around trying to find the source of my noise. It's been hard to work on since the boat is at the lake and when we are there everyone wants to be out doing things rather than watching me dig around in the boat. I've been reading about ground loops etc and have come across ground loop isolators like this http://www.amazon.com/PAC-SNI-1-Noise-Isolator/dp/B000K50HJE/ref=pd_sim_422_3?ie=UTF8&refRID=04R375MXVJXZST208KR9 . Would this help get rid of the whining noise?

Hi Jason-


Ground loop isolators only hide the problem rather than fixing it. The best course of action is for EVERY single piece of stereo electronics to have their power and ground connected at exactly the same locations. As Mike has pointed out, the best point for your radio power, your EQ power and whatever else is literally right at your biggest amp's power terminals.

Your noise issue stems from the fact that your stereo system electronics are operating at slightly different B+ and B- voltages. Parts of the stereo are connected to power sources that other things are connected to, like the helm display, tachometer, nav lighting etc. That is where the noise originates. The shield on your RCA cables provides the ground reference that exposes the noise...

Before going any further in your investigation, take the time to rewire your EQ power wiring straight to the big amp, both B+ conductors, (red and yellow, red through switch) and the B- ground conductor. Do the same for the radio. Without taking these first two steps no amount of sleuthing is going to fix your noise issue. Don't use temporary jumpers; this needs done anyway so just do it and do it correct once. After that set gains as low as possible. This will get you a good jumping-off point.

Bottom line is this: When you get all of your gear operating from the same power point, you are minimizing voltage potential differences on both the B+ and ground conductors. You are also providing a dedicated power circuit that does not have other noisy stuff on it dirtying up your power.

Holler; I am happy to help, but lets fix fundamental problems first

Phil
Kicker

[philwsailz]

I don't run it this way. Only did this while I was looking for the source of the whine. I was moving the switch around to see if there was any difference from one battery to the next and just noticed this as I went thru the off position. Only had it that way momentarily. I'm always too worried about the batteries dying to run like that.

Any thoughts on those ground loop isolators?

Man, I hate to tell you but flipping the switch thru OFF to the other batteries with the motor running, even just temporarily is exactly how it goes bad. Going into simple detail, when you have the switch in BATT1 or BATT2 the alternator sees a load, and a voltage, and the voltage regulator is controlling things. When you switch to OFF the battery load is removed, resulting in a bunch of current with no place to go. The voltage regulator does not know how to react to the newly open circuit. If you blew the voltage regulator, now rather than putting what, 14.7 volts into the batteries, you can be putting in upwards of 22 or 25 even at RPM. If you blew the regulator the damage is done, but you won't know it till you hit the water and throttle up...

There is a chance you are okay, but it will be safer to try and find out that your regulator is still working right...

It will help to know this: Is the entire boat wired through the switch? To be sure, start with nothing in the boat on. Turn the battery switch to off. Will the motor crank? Will the stereo come on? Do you have an automatic charging relay or dual battery isolator in the boat? If you can still crank the motor with the battery switch in the OFF position you likely have some sort of dual battery system, and you are likely going to be fine, as the alternator is hopefully hard-wired to your starting bank.

Phil
Kicker

[Jason05216]

Don't think I did any damage to the regulator. Have run the boat for a couple of weekends with no issues.

I'm pretty sure I have eliminated the whine in my system. When I ran the new RCA cables I left the existing ones in the boat. Last weekend I did some testing using the old RCA cable and had no noise. Tonight I hooked everything up using the old RCA cables to the amps for the tower and in boats and used one of the new RCA cables for the sub. No noise at all. Glad to have solved this after chasing it around all summer.