Trayson's Ghetto Gate

[trayson]

So, on my last boat, I made a DIY surf system that was a manual version of the NSS. The hull on my XLV just doesn't lend itself to that.

So far I've run the XLV listed for surfing. I've done the following configurations:

650 in the front/basement locker, 1100 surfside
650 in the front/basement locker, 1100 surfside, 400 on surfside seat
1180 gravity bag in the front/basement locker, 1100 surfside.


The wave is okay, but nothing to get super excited about. I do have a custom surf platform because I hate how the OEM platforms have that lip on the bottom that digs into the wave.

I got the materials last year to make a ghetto gate and last night finally got the motivation to make it a reality. I ordered up two large HDPE 1/2" thick cutting boards in blue to match my hull. Also got a box of stainless screws and a couple of eye bolts.

I started up by cutting one of the cutting board pieces in half lengthwise. then I messed around a little bit and found that a pair of 1/2" HDPE scraps would work best to space the two pieces apart for my swim platform thickness (it's 3/4" plus the thickness of the hydroturf).

Since my swim platform has grab handles on the side, I made the stopper/spacer piece custom to accommodate the angle.
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-UefhuhqDhfY/VRDplwuuD8I/AAAAAAAAYZA/VxskZ_-ddN4/s800/20150323_183758.jpg

originally I had planned to put the blue foam piece you see pictured above as a spacer to pad where the HDPE would meet my hull. But I didn't have to have foam there (more on that later).

As far as the surfgate itself, there is an inverse relationship between the length of the gate and the angle that it extends out from the hull. For the NSS, it's at a 90 degree angle to the hull and therefore has to only extend 3". Boonejeepin made a ghetto gate that is parallel with the hull and accordingly his gate needs to be quite long. I made my gate extend at an angle of 22.5 degrees. From what I remember Malibu uses 22 degrees on their surfgate and my chopsaw had a nice lock at 22.5 degrees, so that's what I used.

I cut a scrap piece at 22.5 degrees and used that as my "angle finder" and mocked up my other big piece of HDPE and drew a line at the spot where it seemed like the gate would be meeting up pretty nicely with the lower corner of my transom.

After hacking off the ends of my horizontal gate support, I realized that the pieces I just cut off would make a perfect spacer for the far end of the two horizontal supports that attach the gate to the platform. I would get 2" of mounting surface for the vertical gate to mate up with the horizontal supports.

You will also notice a black piece of HDPE that forms a gusset on the bottom of the gate. I just happened to have a scrap piece of 3/4" HDPE that was already cut as a right triangle and just happened to be the same length as the distance from the horizontal gate support to the bottom of the blade. so I figured why not and threw it on there. It was pointed out to me that my gusseting would have been stronger with the long end horizontal, but oh well--some gusset is better than no gusset.

Here is how it stands so far:
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-Z2lAz6disok/VRHWUr4RsmI/AAAAAAAAYag/UZPpuR-iLu8/s800/20150324_141322.jpg

I was able to secure the eye bolts through both horizontal pieces AND through the spacers, so they're bolted through a solid 2" of material with SS washers and a lock washer.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-fyZSXodRSYk/VRHWZAV9fXI/AAAAAAAAYag/1CyNaD7OFQo/s800/20150324_141337.jpg

Even with both ratchet straps, I didn't like how the gate didn't feel all that secure and how the rear inner corner (against the hull on the inside of the platform) wanted to pull away from the hull. That's when I came up with the idea of adding a pin. I grabbed a spare 5/8" hitch pin and drilled a hole through both horizontal supports and through the HDPE swim platform. After popping in the hitch pin and cinching up with ratchet straps, the gate is SOLID and doesn't need a pad between the horizontal supports and the hull as it'll never touch.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-GYTadm5YC0A/VRHWTGI71nI/AAAAAAAAYag/t6SpNfx_hGg/s800/20150324_141412.jpg
As far as the foam that goes between the gate and the hull, for the time being I'm using a blue dollar store pool noodle! LOL! We'll see if I come up with something better. But that edge is cut pretty well to mirror the crazy hull contour (I mocked it up with cardboard and then used my jigsaw to cut out the design on the HDPE).

[trayson]

Here is a close up of the attachment to the hull. Ultimately I wanted something quick and easy to install and remove from the platform when we're out on the water. Lots of people have used turnbuckle screw thingies for the attachement of the near eye to the rear tiedown eye on the hull. I didn't like additional hardware I'd have to "screw" around with (and pay for) so I opted for two ratchet straps and I think it'll work fine.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-VNbLY8Fiv6I/VRHWaVaENLI/AAAAAAAAYag/EsXAS0hH47I/s800/20150324_141345.jpg

Now the blade looks ginormous and it most certainly IS. I don't know how much I'll ultimately cut it down. But as you all know, it's easier to cut it than to add material!

I had found a 1:1 scale template of the actual surfgate blade from a 2014 Axis A22. I printed it out and you can see how it might overlay with my blade that I made. If you look closely, you can see the shadow of my material behind the paper to give you a perspective of how the blades compare.
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-ecZojzKoe_E/VRHWborYCMI/AAAAAAAAYag/YTtMFoIlLs0/s800/20150324_141913.jpg

Again, I figure I should at least water test it once before I start hacking off material.

Oh, and as far as why even use a gate vs just adding more listed weight? Well, given that I really don't want any bags on top of the seats, that means that my option for adding surf side weight would be adding a surf side underseat bag that goes from just forward of the spot where my underseat cooler cutout is and would extend up to where my batteries are located. so basically under the surfside seats midship. I could put a bag there and add one more "auxiliary" pump for that bag. I figured before I did that, it'd make sense to play with a surfgate. With a surfgate, I will be able to delay convergence of my wakes. Everyone should know that by now. In my case however, It would allow me to evenly weight the boat--not before we get into a listed vs evenly weighted thing, the one serious benefit I see aside from the convenience of being evenly weighted is that I would have the ability to fill BOTH of my rear bags and have DUAL 1100 bags. That's increasing my weight by roughly 50% over having just the surfside and the front/basement bags. So that's most certainly something worth exploring. Especially somewhere around $40 in materials IIRC.

Constructive feedback is always welcome.

[jmvotto]

Gate looks good, let me know how the angle works.

We did 1100 port, 11800 center 200 off side, 650 on the nose and another 750, on the port side floor , wave was really good. Hoping my ghetto gate can get the 750 off the floor and , I will plumb 520 under the seats in the nose.

[trayson]

Gate looks good, let me know how the angle works.

We did 1100 port, 11800 center 200 off side, 650 on the nose and another 750, on the port side floor , wave was really good. Hoping my ghetto gate can get the 750 off the floor and , I will plumb 520 under the seats in the nose.

I have a friend of mine that has installed a handful of lenco actuated gates on various boats. he's up to 4 or 5 installs now. I talked to him a bit and he seemed to think that the precision of the angle really isn't all that important as he's seen angles end up between 20 and 25 degrees on retrofitted surfgates. Varying the angle on a power actuated gate doesn't seem to have a big impact either. I've watched this in action on his MB.

obviously as mentioned above the length of gate needed will vary with the angle from the hull with 90 degrees like the NSS being the shortest (3") and zero degrees (parallel to the hull) like Boonejeepin' will necessitate a longer gate. Unfortunately there really isn't a way to EASILY play with length vs. angle. (I had actually toyed with the idea of putting my blade on a hinge so that I COULD play with the angle, but then I'd have to have some method of extending/retracting the blade on the hinge and I just wasn't feeling the additional complexity, especially with as curvy as my hull is.

I guess that's why I just chose to use about what Malibu does and skip the complexity.

[bergermaister]

Looking good. One suggestion:



https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-VNbLY8Fiv6I/VRHWaVaENLI/AAAAAAAAYag/EsXAS0hH47I/s800/20150324_141345.jpg

I'd be very curious if you could get away with a single ratchet strap going from one gate loop, through the transom tie down, and back to the other gate loop. It would be a shorty but would sure clean up the appearance and ease of setup.

???

[parrothd]

And if you move the pin, you could add addition holes to change the angel?

[moombadaze]

How about adding a second pin and go with one strap

[trayson]

Yeah, I guess I could figure out a different routing and go with one strap. Of course, I've already cut my ratchet straps. Not that straps are all that expensive.

I'm honestly more concerned with the size and shape of the blade portion of the gate...

[trayson]

Added another gusset to the gate.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Wi766Kq_Txw/VRIgH1DJEfI/AAAAAAAAYbA/h-5lqubM7L4/s800/20150324_191819.jpg

Ratchet straps and hitch pin store on the gate so I don't loose parts.
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-SKtQ2TuG-70/VRIgG3tTPcI/AAAAAAAAYa4/4mZWfw8irt8/s800/20150324_192338.jpg

[sivs1]

After seeing and reading your Supra Gate you built I knew it was only a matter of time before you tackled this on the XLV. I am stealing you pictures to try and mock up my own but will just use 3/4 plywood I have laying around until I hone it all in and then buy the HDPE.

What size is your gate currently, before cutting it down any? are you making a gate for goofy side as well?

[mmandley]

I love your ingenuity, I am ok with a lot of do it yourself things but these gates you guys come up with ate pretty neat.

[trayson]

After seeing and reading your Supra Gate you built I knew it was only a matter of time before you tackled this on the XLV. I am stealing you pictures to try and mock up my own but will just use 3/4 plywood I have laying around until I hone it all in and then buy the HDPE.

What size is your gate currently, before cutting it down any? are you making a gate for goofy side as well?

So the material I started with was 18x24x1/2" cutting boards. I got two of them in blue:
http://www.webstaurantstore.com/3059/color-coded-cutting-boards.html?filter=size:18-x-24-inches
(the first 6 on there are your color choices: white, green, red, yellow, blue, brown.)

I know that 1/2" black HDPE is most certainly available, but not on this site.

I took one of the boards and cut it in half so it was 9x24". I have a small 1/2 inch HDPE spacer between my custom swim platform and the metal brackets. so the bottom horizontal support is basically butted against the spacer on the platform bracket.

The other cutting board is what became the gate itself. so it's 18x24". The bottom edge is still 24" and I'm pretty sure I'll cut down the height a decent amount. I will probably have it about as tall as water level when I'm fully ballasted.

I suppose that eventually I might do a goofy. I only have 1 or 2 friends that surf goofy and not really anyone that's consistently with us. I might have to try a listed goofy wave and see how it looks with no gates. If it's surfable, it might not be necessary?? The goofy side won't benefit from my prop rotation, but it will benefit from the weight of the driver.


I love your ingenuity, I am ok with a lot of do it yourself things but these gates you guys come up with ate pretty neat.

Thanks Mike. I'll keep ya all updated...

[Boonejeepin]

I predict that you will like the results.

[moombadaze]

Has anyone done a ghetto gate for a lsv with the surf platform, your gate had me out looking at my setup

[mikenehrkorn]

I put one together for my OBV with the stock surf platform out of scrap lumber I had laying around but I did it after last season so still waiting to test it out.

21638216392164021641

[trayson]

I predict that you will like the results.

I predict I will too. Just not sure how much I'll end up needing to be cutting it down.

[jmvotto]

Yeah. It looks huge

Really interested in the angle. Mine is straight but not tested yet and can Adjust it with a couple of screws

[moombadaze]

so what what is better, angle vrs straight

how low into the water does it need to be

how high above the platform

how far back should it be

how tight to the transom does it need to be

thanks

[jmvotto]

so what what is better, angle vrs straight
Not sure yet

how low into the water does it need to be

Bottom of the hull

how high above the platform

Couple inches I imagine

how far back should it be

I did 30 inches

how tight to the transom does it need to be

Pretty tight to eliminate gaps

thanks

..........................

[snyderaaron]

Enough with the build, lets see how the wave looks :D

[trayson]

so what what is better, angle vrs straight

It depends. angle will make it so that you can use less length on the gate, straight is way easier to construct but should end up needing more length.


how low into the water does it need to be
I made mine to be as low as the bottom of the hull.



how high above the platform
My HDPE was 18" tall. I made it so the bottom of the gate was about the bottom of the hull. You saw in my pics that the top stuck up well above the swim platform. I was seriously expecting to have to chop down the top part to be more like the malibu/axis gate where they are only an inch or two above the platform. However, with both of my 1100 bags full, the stern was so slammed that my platform was a good 6+ inches underwater at rest. The water level was about the FULL height of my tall gate. Crazy.


how far back should it be

Your guess is as good as mine. You saw from my pic the overlay of the malibu/axis gate, and how it was a few inches shorter than mine. My material. was 24" long, but some of that length is absorbed in the hull relief cutout at the very bottom, so I'd guess it's probably a real 20" from the hull. I hadn't cut it down at all yet.

How long? Some people have done 18", others 20" mine was 24" on the very longest bottom edge. I mean, none of us are fluid dynamics engineers. We're all just guessing and doing trial and error.

But if you need a number, I'd say make it 21.4372375" long. LOL!



how tight to the transom does it need to be

Well if your goal is to divert water and you don't want a bunch of spray, make it seal up nicely like I did. The combo of the ratchet straps, hitch pin and pool noodle worked VERY well.

As far as spray coming off the top, it did shoot a wave of water over the top, but it was out at the swim platform, so it didn't really have any effect on getting any of the sundeck.


thanks

You're welcome. I try to share as much as I can.

[mmandley]

It depends. angle will make it so that you can use less length on the gate, straight is way easier to construct but should end up needing more length.

I made mine to be as low as the bottom of the hull.


My HDPE was 18" tall. I made it so the bottom of the gate was about the bottom of the hull. You saw in my pics that the top stuck up well above the swim platform. I was seriously expecting to have to chop down the top part to be more like the malibu/axis gate where they are only an inch or two above the platform. However, with both of my 1100 bags full, the stern was so slammed that my platform was a good 6+ inches underwater at rest. The water level was about the FULL height of my tall gate. Crazy.


Your guess is as good as mine. You saw from my pic the overlay of the malibu/axis gate, and how it was a few inches shorter than mine. My material. was 24" long, but some of that length is absorbed in the hull relief cutout at the very bottom, so I'd guess it's probably a real 20" from the hull. I hadn't cut it down at all yet.

How long? Some people have done 18", others 20" mine was 24" on the very longest bottom edge. I mean, none of us are fluid dynamics engineers. We're all just guessing and doing trial and error.

But if you need a number, I'd say make it 21.4372375" long. LOL!


Well if your goal is to divert water and you don't want a bunch of spray, make it seal up nicely like I did. The combo of the ratchet straps, hitch pin and pool noodle worked VERY well.

As far as spray coming off the top, it did shoot a wave of water over the top, but it was out at the swim platform, so it didn't really have any effect on getting any of the sundeck.


You're welcome. I try to share as much as I can.

All this is....

http://i639.photobucket.com/albums/uu114/mmandley/yodapic_zpsrpi73vg5.jpg (http://s639.photobucket.com/user/mmandley/media/yodapic_zpsrpi73vg5.jpg.html)

[trayson]

I know, I know. Most the vid was done on other people's phones and gopros.

This is one of the better ones I have right now. He was still riding this and didn't get dropped off the back. I'm not totally sold on the wave with the gate and all the weight. My wife really didn't enjoy driving with the giant gate off the side. she couldn't turn left against the gate at slow speeds. I still have plenty of experimentation to do. But it's been a fun experiment so far. I mean, for $40 in materials, it's fun to play.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-oztwIiWDx-I/VRV12Jx0NqI/AAAAAAAAYeU/bA7wU0anyVY/s800/GhettoGateWave.jpg

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-N4hf-i2QGIQ/VRV3gTBVXBI/AAAAAAAAYes/lK3VtokzUy4/s800/Ghetto%2520Gate%2520Wave%25202.jpg

It's sure a lot better than what I started out with. this was the weak wave the first time I took the XLV out.
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-uOIHac7lfbs/VCmV8N4KcfI/AAAAAAAAUcM/4SERiHr5lPI/s800/IMG_1648.JPG

[jmvotto]

Wave looks good, third photo looks like stock ballast.

[mmandley]

I'm a little concerned that the Gate has Taken the Curve out of the back, or HOOK as they say.

The wave looks more linear and straight which means you actually have to work harder to keep up because you don't have the hook coming behind you to help keep you in the pocket.

In other words yours always cutting into the side wave, and never getting that rear end push forward.

Might be the pics, just what I am seeing here.

In your 3rd pick you can see that pronounced hook as you fell over the back. That hook is Extremely important in your surf wave.

[trayson]

I see what you mean.

So yesterday we went out with only my wife and 55 pound son. Wife drove and my little son was the only thing on the surfside.

I filled both the front GG bag and rear surfside locker bags until they were popping cushions. I also took one of the old stock 390 bags (50x20x10) and put that under the surfside seats midship. the bag fit pretty well from just in front of the cooler cutout and extended to the back of where my batteries are. I don't think I got the full 390 but a decent amount towards full.

The wave shape was beautiful. I really liked it. Downstream seemed to actually have more push than upstream, which is the opposite of typical. There was one time that the wave never really formed and I have no idea what was up with that.

We had the wakeplate at about 1/4 of the way down.

It was enough that I could carve and play on it. I could kick it a little sideways at the top, but I did have to be careful as my "recovery" zone was a lot smaller. I think that with more people, the wave would be respectable.

I guess it's a good thing that I only put around $40 into the ghetto gate. Still lots of trial and error left to do, but I'm not willing to say that the gate's the do all and end all of my quest for a reasonable surf wave.

[Boonejeepin]

Had a decent wave yesterday while out with Pat. The wave was plenty tall and I could have moved some more weight to the nose to increase length.

900s full in both V drive lockers. Maybe a little less than full on off side.

1180 full in the playpen, about 200 lbs on top of that in another bag filled with my aux pump/hose

160lbs of solid ballast in port side factory cooler

700 lbs of solid ballast distributed in the surf side corner. Some on top of the 900 locker bag, some under the surf side corner cushion.

50 lbs in the nose

Speed between 11 and 12

Wake plate all the way up

Tab up on surf side and down on offside (I don't think this does much at all)

[trayson]

Had a decent wave yesterday while out with Pat. The wave was plenty tall and I could have moved some more weight to the nose to increase length.

900s full in both V drive lockers. Maybe a little less than full on off side.

1180 full in the playpen, about 200 lbs on top of that in another bag filled with my aux pump/hose

160lbs of solid ballast in port side factory cooler

700 lbs of solid ballast distributed in the surf side corner. Some on top of the 900 locker bag, some under the surf side corner cushion.

50 lbs in the nose

Speed between 11 and 12

Wake plate all the way up

Tab up on surf side and down on offside (I don't think this does much at all)

Speed seems awfully fast... I rarely go over 9.5

[wolfeman131]

Speed seems awfully fast... I rarely go over 9.5

You don't have enough weight. I haven't run under 10.8 mph since moving to the Mojo.

[trayson]

You don't have enough weight. I haven't run under 10.8 mph since moving to the Mojo.


Fair enough. good to know.

[Boonejeepin]

I find that my XLV wants to be very heavy and the wave gets better with speed (up to 12.8mph)

[wolfeman131]

I find that my XLV wants to be very heavy and the wave gets better with speed (up to 12.8mph)

running like a BOSS!

[trayson]

I find that my XLV wants to be very heavy and the wave gets better with speed (up to 12.8mph)

I guess I'll have to try more speed. Maybe I should throw the Tantrum Perfect Pass remote control into my XLV. I yanked it out of the supra when I sold it, so that might be a cool thing to use to play around with speed (so I can control it from behind the boat.)

[Boonejeepin]

I think speeding up will help a lot.

[trayson]

I think speeding up will help a lot.

More push???? because other than the push, I really like how clean and shaped the wave was yesterday.

[Boonejeepin]

Generally the power increases when speed decreases.

[trayson]

Generally the power increases when speed decreases.

Yeah, that's been my experience as well.

I guess it always comes down to one thing and one thing only...

MORE WEIGHT!!!

[Boonejeepin]

Yeah, that's been my experience as well.

I guess it always comes down to one thing and one thing only...

MORE WEIGHT!!!

No replacement for displacement.

[jmvotto]

I find that my XLV wants to be very heavy and the wave gets better with speed (up to 12.8mph)

We run the xlv on the faster side as well around 12 to 12.5

[mmandley]

More speed will make more water pass under the boat respectively makes the wave longer but also pushes the pocket back. It's a tipping point on size vs push. Try surfing at 10.8 then move to 11.2 and when you go to fast you will know it.

Behind my boat you surfed 10.8 whether you knew it or not lol

[trayson]

Here is some video of my run with the ghetto gate. I think we were going our standard 9.5mph?


https://youtu.be/TYmeHjuieGQ

[mmandley]

That looks a lot better then the pictures you posted. I would still try stepping up the speed.

Now your next goal is to make it so your wife doesn't complain about steering LOL.

[bergermaister]

I'm curious if you were running upstream or down?

I've found that running upstream, regardless of what speed adjustments you make, is just better. Stupid river...

[trayson]

That looks a lot better then the pictures you posted. I would still try stepping up the speed.

Now your next goal is to make it so your wife doesn't complain about steering LOL.

Honestly the only way to make that the case would be to have power actuated gates/tabs. And to make it so that they auto-retracted below a certain speed. Obviously all this tech exists, the Malibu guys have created GPS control modules that do all of that for their retrofitted surf gates. Not really possible on a ghetto gate sadly.


I'm curious if you were running upstream or down?

I've found that running upstream, regardless of what speed adjustments you make, is just better. Stupid river...

Upstream. You can see at the beginning of the video that the pipeline staging is on the port side (those are on the North side of the Hayden island slough) and you can also see the towers of the port of portland cranes behind me. so definitely upstream.

[trayson]

That looks a lot better then the pictures you posted. I would still try stepping up the speed.


I haven't tried stepping up the speed with the gate, but we upped the speed listed with the addition of about 350 surfside midship and 250 under the bow surfside seat. It looked great at the higher 11 to 12.5 speeds but from a rider perspective, it wasn't optimal. Not only did I not like riding at the faster speed, but I also was really lacking in push until I brought it back down to 9.5. Go figure.

[moombadaze]

trayson, in the video, what board are you riding?

[trayson]

trayson, in the video, what board are you riding?

My Doomswell Nubstep.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-9iOiuKtn9BM/VDLEcP1HbPI/AAAAAAAAUfc/qMovVMEw9VY/s800/IMG957298.jpg

[costanza]

Just checking in to see if you guys kept using your ghetto gates for the summer, or made any more alterations to them. This looks like a great project for the winter. I love what you guys have done!! I was contemplating buying a pre-fab one (still way cheaper than manual flow - over 2500$ Canadian now!! Crazy!), but these don't look too bad to make... Thanks for any insight!

[parrothd]

Best thing ever, was planning to upgrade to a better surf boat, but this thing rocks. Even those that have been on g23s think it's really good..

[jmvotto]

Best 30 bucks. Spent on the boat