Question for the experts - new hybrid setup

[brain_rinse]

I want some more bass and a little more projection out of my tower setup (currently 4 Exile SXT 6.5s.) Thinking about putting a WetSounds REV410 in the center and running a hybrid setup. I know the speakers are different brands but I would plasti-dip all the grilles the same color to make it look uniform. Is there any way a 5 channel would work for everything if I used the sub channel to power the 410? I have a Audiovox 5 channel in my Miata that I'd like to use if there is any way possible. Thanks!

[MLA]

If its a 5 chnl with a sub chnl, which most are, then its a low-pass only chnl and is only intended to drive subs. A 2 chnl in the 400W x 1 or more range is ideal. With the right power, the 410 will not only deliver the bass you seek, with its 2 10" mid-bass woofers, but will consume those 4 6.5" coaxials. I would consider a single pair of rev-10's in place of the 4 6.5 pods and rev-410. Their bass output is close to the 410, but a little more peak output. For a strictly surf setup, the Rev-10 can be tuned a little lower. 2 pair of 8" coaxials would be more bass then your current setup, but not as deep a larger speaker. They would likely cost more as well.

[David Analog]

A direct-radiating tweeter is not going to project well. It's by no means exclusive to the SXT65s. It's the nature of a surf speaker regardless of brand. A dome is designed to distribute over a wider pattern and that means with less intensity at a greater distance. Plus, any tower speaker that is designed for longer projection needs to have a little extra treble emphasis to have intelligibility at distance when underway and competing with noise. Why? Treble is attenuated at a higher rate over distance. Add to that you need a larger speaker than a 6.5" for both good midbass and for projection with any degree of authority.
The Wetsounds Rev10 is the smoothest HLCD type speaker available. So it is nice for near field listening as compared to most of the aggressive HLCDs. But properly powered the dual 10s and pro audio style horn are going to dominate over four 6.5" coaxials. It's difficult to tune a hybrid such as this because you are torn between muting the stronger speaker or protecting the smaller speaker. Either way in an attempt to balance you are leaving performance on the table. With such a size differential in speakers you would also be compelled to crossover the two at different frequencies. I've never been a fan of this because both speakers are out-of-phase with one another throughout the crossover filter range.
Most 5-channel amplifiers will not do fullrange or highpass on the fifth channel.
Tower speakers do not produce much, if any real bass. The pods are too compact and there is no reinforcing plane when elevated on a tower. The Wetsounds are the one of few tower speakers with a 10-inch midbass and they have the largest pod displacement. So that is as close to bass as you can get.
So I would rethink this. Possibly a 'pair' of Wetsounds Rev10s and a dedicated amplifier to perfectly match.

[jmvotto]

4 xm9s work very well for me with a sub. I do have the separate sub amp. I would scrap the hybrid approach. the 9's also have a switch that lessens the hlcd frequency slightly.

[MLA]

One has to consider standing on the seats while the boat bobs up and down to remove 8 little screws from 4 pods just to make an inaudible difference just to do from surf listening to wake range listening?

[KG's Supra24]

My first thought is what was mentioned above .... The 6.5" speakers will basically be cosmetic bc the Rev410 will dominate big time.

That and a 5th channel is likely going to be low pass so it wouldn't work to power a tower setup.

[jmvotto]

One has to consider standing on the seats while the boat bobs up and down to remove 8 little screws from 4 pods just to make an inaudible difference just to do from surf listening to wake range listening?

you could just leave them off while you change sets from surf to wake. I take my pods off the boat and store them. you would do this based on boat prep for the day.

[KG's Supra24]

or you could just buy the better speaker :p

[MLA]

Just leave the switch alone, because it makes such a minute difference. beyond that, one can compare the cost of 4 smaller pods to a single pair of larger pods. Deeper mid-bass extension with the larger pods, with maybe only a little less peak output at wake range.

[DOCDRS]

The bigger question is ......what colour are you going to plastidip the grills......and will they be any good for the que?

[brain_rinse]

I was thinking red like my boat, and my Miata.

[KG's Supra24]

Red would look sharp! I've contemplated it

http://www.wakeworld.com/gallery/p.php?a=YndmXmFrf0xmZWp2TGV1VHZjcWInQVpFK2dlY3d/KickKjUlJj0kNCY/NiUoMSc7Ojo2JT46LjI2

[David Analog]

The switch in question uses a 1-ohm resistor in series with a 4-ohm tweeter. So the attenuation is too minimal to be of much value in changing the complexion of the speaker under active conditions....other than the placebo effect.

The hybrid approach has pretty much gone away. It began with smallish 6.5" HLCDs that projected but were very harsh or shrill. Wetsounds was the first to do it with the Double-Up. By mixing in another and warmer surf or midbass speaker the idea was to moderate the HLCD but still maintain projection. However, you always have contradictions with an asymmetrical set-up. Extra speakers but no more projection than the single pair of HLCDs provide. An inequity in power handling. More difficult to tune correctly. Less cost-effective to power. Too expensive overall for what you get. Phasing conflicts. Etc., Etc. As hard as the concept was sold, in the end it was no more than a retro fix for speakers that did not perform as needed.
Regardless of which speakers are used I strongly recommend that all speakers are the same brand, equal in size, identical in impedance, the same type (whether HLCD or conventional), and that all speakers are staged at the same depth on the same tube. Get that one speaker that does all jobs well of near field sound quality, better midbass, and long range projection and stick with it. Then use equalization to attend to any imperfections under alternate conditions. The Wetsounds WS dual zone EQ is especially adept at doing this. Hideaway EQs and bit processors are also more commonly used now. But as equalization becomes more sophisticated you really need a larger tower speaker.

[jmvotto]

Red would look sharp! I've contemplated it

http://www.wakeworld.com/gallery/p.php?a=YndmXmFrf0xmZWp2TGV1VHZjcWInQVpFK2dlY3d/KickKjUlJj0kNCY/NiUoMSc7Ojo2JT46LjI2

KG you getting a Tige???:cool:

[KG's Supra24]

Negative! Contemplated the red grills

My next boat purchase is likely gonna be a tritoon. :eek:

[jmvotto]

Negative! Contemplated the red grills

My next boat purchase is likely gonna be a tritoon. :eek:

Nice! I need a tonner in the arsenal...

[trayson]

The switch in question uses a 1-ohm resistor in series with a 4-ohm tweeter. So the attenuation is too minimal to be of much value in changing the complexion of the speaker under active conditions....other than the placebo effect.

The hybrid approach has pretty much gone away. It began with smallish 6.5" HLCDs that projected but were very harsh or shrill. Wetsounds was the first to do it with the Double-Up. By mixing in another and warmer surf or midbass speaker the idea was to moderate the HLCD but still maintain projection. However, you always have contradictions with an asymmetrical set-up. Extra speakers but no more projection than the single pair of HLCDs provide. An inequity in power handling. More difficult to tune correctly. Less cost-effective to power. Too expensive overall for what you get. Phasing conflicts. Etc., Etc. As hard as the concept was sold, in the end it was no more than a retro fix for speakers that did not perform as needed.
Regardless of which speakers are used I strongly recommend that all speakers are the same brand, equal in size, identical in impedance, the same type (whether HLCD or conventional), and that all speakers are staged at the same depth on the same tube. Get that one speaker that does all jobs well of near field sound quality, better midbass, and long range projection and stick with it. Then use equalization to attend to any imperfections under alternate conditions. The Wetsounds WS dual zone EQ is especially adept at doing this. Hideaway EQs and bit processors are also more commonly used now. But as equalization becomes more sophisticated you really need a larger tower speaker.

Okay, just for the sake of curiousity, what about a "hybrid" approach with HLCD's all around. Like combining a set of Kicker 6500.2 with a REV410? How would that play out? Foolishness or could it work?

Just trying to think outside the box.

[MLA]

Okay, just for the sake of curiousity, what about a "hybrid" approach with HLCD's all around. Like combining a set of Kicker 6500.2 with a REV410? How would that play out? Foolishness or could it work?

Just trying to think outside the box.

It would not be a setup I would suggest to build from scratch. From a cost stand point (using Kicker's retail pricing not what it can be had for through an internet clearing house), it would not be much of a leap to go to a 2nd 410 and both could be driven by the same 4 chnl amp, or a pair of Rev-10 to compliment a single 410.

In the context of this thread where someone has a setup thats not meeting their goals, I would have to know what the shortcomings are, and address those in a similar manor as it was here. Not enough projection? Whats the wattage? Is it aimed correctly and is the 6dB on the compression driver activated? Not enough mid-bass output? are you running the extra mids. Not enough mid-bass extension, need to go larger. With 2 different brands of speakers, you always have different sound signatures. With different sizes, you will always have the larger dominating the smaller. This can be to a point were the battery consumption to drive the smaller set, is not worth the gain.

[David Analog]

Okay, just for the sake of curiousity, what about a "hybrid" approach with HLCD's all around. Like combining a set of Kicker 6500.2 with a REV410? How would that play out? Foolishness or could it work?

Just trying to think outside the box.

I agree with all the comments made above by Mike. Back to the core issues. Mixing a 6.5" HLCD and a 10" HLCD is a waste of investment. A 10" has more than 3 X the surface area of a 6.5". So with the same amplifier power the 10" will dominate leaving the 6.5" invisible. Add to that the fact that the 10" will handle way more power long after the 6.5" has reached its limit. Now if you had a pair of Kicker HLCDs I would strongly recommend the second set of 6.5" midbass drivers. With the second set (requiring six pods) the package is pretty good. Right there with any 8" HLCD and good sounding. Without the second pair it's just another smallish 6.5" HLCD.

[kaneboats]

What are you going to put in the Miata? Got some Christmas boxes to open?

[brain_rinse]

V8 swap and a roll cage!

[trayson]

I agree with all the comments made above by Mike. Back to the core issues. Mixing a 6.5" HLCD and a 10" HLCD is a waste of investment. A 10" has more than 3 X the surface area of a 6.5". So with the same amplifier power the 10" will dominate leaving the 6.5" invisible. Add to that the fact that the 10" will handle way more power long after the 6.5" has reached its limit. Now if you had a pair of Kicker HLCDs I would strongly recommend the second set of 6.5" midbass drivers. With the second set (requiring six pods) the package is pretty good. Right there with any 8" HLCD and good sounding. Without the second pair it's just another smallish 6.5" HLCD.

I have a kicker zx350.4 bridged powering my KM6500.2 tower speakers. If I added the 2nd set of mids, would my amp still be okay, or would I need to step up to something more?

[David Analog]

I have a kicker zx350.4 bridged powering my KM6500.2 tower speakers. If I added the 2nd set of mids, would my amp still be okay, or would I need to step up to something more?

Yes, since you would be dropping from a 4-ohm to a 2-ohm load you would need to get away from a bridged four channel amplifier and go to a stereo 2-channel amplifier. Plus, the doubled up midbass drivers would deserve a lot more power. 2 X 250 watts @ 2-ohms is a nice place to start. Or more.

[MLA]

Trayson,

If there is room, go with a 2nd 4 chnl amp of similar wattage, or more, to your current zx350.4, which is 175w rms x 2 @ 4 ohm. if you get a 2nd 4 chnl with more output, use it for the 6500.2 setup and then use the zx350.4 for the new extra mids. if space is not available, then get a single 2 chnl as David suggested. I would shoot for one with a 2 ohm output of around 350w rms or more.

[brain_rinse]

You audio guys must be well trained in dealing with ridiculous questions! I figured the WS/EXILE tower combo was crazy enough for you guys to see right through. Does Audiovox even make amps? :) Oh, I can assure you I don't have a Miata... I'd look like a bear on a bicycle.

At least we have established that hybrid setups are dead, so that's good.

[MLA]

You audio guys must be well trained in dealing with ridiculous questions! I figured the WS/EXILE tower combo was crazy enough for you guys to see right through. Does Audiovox even make amps? :) Oh, I can assure you I don't have a Miata... I'd look like a bear on a bicycle.

At least we have established that hybrid setups are dead, so that's good.

So you are saying "shucks, they didnt take the WS/exile bait like we thought"? Instead, the thread remained on topic and objective. Sorry to disappoint, no exile "bashing", just the facts as usual. :p

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_kw=audiovox+rampage+amp

http://www.retrevo.com/samples/Audiovox-Car-Amplifier.html

[brain_rinse]

So you are saying "shucks, they didnt take the WS/exile bait like we thought"? Instead, the thread remained on topic and objective. Sorry to disappoint, no exile "bashing", just the facts as usual. :p

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_kw=audiovox+rampage+amp

http://www.retrevo.com/samples/Audiovox-Car-Amplifier.html

Not at all, but now I'm going to spend the rest of the night looking at "retro" audio equipment on eBay. Maybe the good stuff from the glory days, like Eclipse head units and MTX subs.

[David Analog]

Retro. Yes. Like Class AB amplifiers and paper subwoofers.

[MLA]

Im always up for a good paper coned woofer tutorial :cool: :twisted: :p

[David Analog]

Im always up for a good paper coned woofer tutorial :cool: :twisted: :p

Yeah, I know of one but it's so old that it would have to be converted from the stone tablet.

[philwsailz]

Its not paper.

Its an advanced, cellulose-based engineering composite...


:D

Phil
Kicker

[David Analog]

Its not paper.

Its an advanced, cellulose-based engineering composite...


:D

Phil
Kicker

Correct. Same as Viva or Bounty.

[MLA]

I thought they were Cellulite-Based.....go figure.