Trayson's 2008 XLV ballast system upgrade

[trayson]

I want to make a shopping list for my ballast system upgrade. I want the list to be comprehensive since my plan is to buy anything I’d be getting from wakemakers on the weekend of Black Friday. I will source the pumps from EBay if cheaper. I will source standard plumbing fittings from my local plumbing store when possible if cheaper than WM.


Current setup

• 1 Rule 2000 (1200GPH) fill pump
• Sprinkler valves as a manifold for fill
• 3 drain pumps (~700GPH)
• No vent lines or check valves
• 1100 rear locker bags
• 650 center bag in basement locker


Thoughts and Assumptions

• My system will be the standard aerator system, repurposing existing components where logical.
• I think that I would rather have a dedicated vent thru-hull rather than T-ing into my drain line. It seems wasteful to buy a t-fitting and a check valve for the vent line just to avoid cutting a hole in the side of my boat. I’m not bashful about cutting holes and having more thru-hulls. No worries.
• Since I don’t currently have vent lines on any of my bags, I would need to buy the bag fittings and hose for these vent lines, if I am going to have to buy flowrite fittings and some hose ANYWAY, I might has well buy 1” fittings and hose and use that for the FILL and repurpose the ¾” existing fill fittings/hose for venting.
• I am fine with ¾” hose/fittings/thru-hulls for draining because draining seems to be less of a priority than filling and much of it can be done while underway or even after the boat’s pulled out of the water (assuming a level boat). Plus, when draining, it’s cool to see water shooting a good distance out of a ¾” thru-hull!
• I am not sure about the whole vented loop vs. check valve on the fill lines. Obviously the vented loops are a LOT more expensive than check valves. It sounds like if I don’t use vented loops that the bags will fill on their own while underway? I am not a fan of that.
• I currently have issues with the rear bag draining through the drain hole even with all the pumps off. I am wondering if I need to have the drain thru-hull located higher up (or possibly more forward?) I am thinking the bag is siphoning because the top of the bag when filled is higher than the drain thru-hull? I don’t know any “solution” for this other than placement of thru-hull.



Setup
1. Center bag (1180 gravity bag)

a. FILL: existing factory thru-hull, existing factory ball valve, new 1” hose, new T1200 Pump, new 1” flowrite bag connector

b. EMPTY: existing ¾” flowrite bag connector, existing ¾” drain hose, T1200 pump, existing ¾” thru-hull

c. VENT: repurpose ¾” flowrite bag connector, repurpose ¾” hose, add ¾” thru-hull
2. Rear Bags (x2)

a. FILL: New 1” thru hull, new 1” elbow and ball valve, new 1” hose, new T1200 pump, new 1” bag connectors

b. EMPTY: existing ¾” flowrite bag connector, existing ¾” drain hose, T1200 pump, existing ¾” thru-hull

c. VENT: repurpose ¾” flowrite bag connector, repurpose ¾” hose, add ¾” thru-hull



Shopping list:

• 1180 Gravity Games bag
• 2 Attwood T1200 Pumps: I need a total of 6 of the T1200’s. I currently have 3. I think I might steal a 4th one from my throw-over and repurpose the factory Rule 2000 as my throw-over. They are basically the same pump, but the rule takes more voltage and is bigger. It seems to make sense to have all uniform pumps anyway.
• 2 bronze thru hulls (1 inch?)
• 2 bronze elbows
• 2 ball valves
• 2 sets of 1” flowrite bag/hose fittings
• 2 black plastic thru-hulls
• A whole bunch of hose clamps
• 1” hose (length?)
• Vented Loops?
• Check Valves?


Questions

• What size thru-hull is optimal for the T1200 fill pump using 1" hose/hardware/fittings?
• Where do I need to put check valves or vented loops?
• Am I correct in my assumption that I need to locate my rear bag drains more forward?

[jstenger]

A vented loop does nothing to keep a bag from self filling. It is used as a vacuum break so that the water does not syphon out of the bag. The duck bill valve lets air in and keeps water from coming out. A check valve will do the same thing. I removed the sprinkler valve and cut the scooper off of my intake on my 2010 OBV to keep the bags from self filling.

[bergermaister]

http://www.wakemakers.com/resources/check-valves-vs-vented-loops/

I have vented loops on all fill lines. No passive filling or draining but they are bulky, spenive, and a PITA to mount in the rear lockers up high under the gunnel.

Criss Cross your vents/drains to the opposite side to negate the dribble effect.

Less holes is more. :p I'd combine vent/drain lines to a single thru hull all day long before drilling another hole.

[jmvotto]

check the flo rite site for parts .. wm has come in on price on some. have to use the fly high bag connectors the ones from flo rite leak and are a different shape on top if you glue them they most likely wont leak.

Cut scupper and criss cross drain lines, wye the drain lines with the vent will help siphon the bags more flat..

??? if your going to drill holes in the bottom why not just by reversible pumps. solve a lot of problems... and work.

[trayson]

Less holes is more. :p I'd combine vent/drain lines to a single thru hull all day long before drilling another hole.

Well, an argument can be made for "more is less".

Thru Hull = $3

versus

Check valve $14 + $6 Wye or $1 Tee.


So, it's $15 to $20 for combining lines vs. $3 for adding another thru-hull. More (holes) is Less (money). LOL!!!

[trayson]

check the flo rite site for parts .. wm has come in on price on some. have to use the fly high bag connectors the ones from flo rite leak and are a different shape on top if you glue them they most likely wont leak.

Cut scupper and criss cross drain lines, wye the drain lines with the vent will help siphon the bags more flat..

??? if your going to drill holes in the bottom why not just by reversible pumps. solve a lot of problems... and work.

It's the classic aerator vs. reversible argument.

Aerator pumps cost less and in my setup should stay lower even with the extra "stuff" needed for my setup.
Aerator pumps draw a lot less current
Aerator pumps should end up faster
Aerator pumps don't require replacement of $20 impellers every couple of years.
Oh, and I forgot the trump-all argument: Because Berg has Aerators and EVERYONE wants to be like BERG!!!!

I just decided to go that way--I already have 4 of the 1200 Attwood Tsunami pumps sourced, so I'm marching forward. :-)

[trayson]

I talked to Wakemakers a little during my lunch hour. They said if I do a check valve on the fill line and loop it up high (similar to the placement of the vented loop) that it should accomplish the same thing (keep it from siphoning). I guess I'll give that a shot since the vented loops are spendy and a PITA like Berg mentioned.

Other than that, I think I have a basic plan. I'm still planning on going with separate vent/drain lines. I'm not really worried about a few more holes.

Since I'm only using 2 of the 3 ports on the current bags, I'll be needing to buy one more set of fittings. So I'll get 1" and do that for the fill line and do 1" hose as well. I'll end up with 3/4" fittings and line on the drain and vent. I think that will be fine.

[trayson]

Also, on the thru-hull, it says on the wakemakers site that a 1" thru-hull requires a 1 5/16" hole saw. My set of hole saws has 1 1/4 and then skips to 1 1/2. Do I really need to get a 1 5/16th? Can someone with experience chime in?

[bergermaister]

You should be able to pick one up for a few bucks at HD or Lowes. For anything under the water line you want minimal gap around the fitting - don't just rely on the 3M sealant to fill in any extra space from too big of a hole. Well you could but I wouldn't.

For above the water line a little oversized on the hole won't hurt. It's a low pressure system and once you goop it up with sealant, as long as the thru hull has a decent sized outer lip, you'll never know there was a tiny gap after you tighten it down.


Too small of a hole and you're forcing the fitting through or going after it with a file to open it up - too easy to chip the gel.

I may have one or a 1-3/8" you can borrow if you don't find what you're looking for.


Of course I'm a GOOD influence. As far as you know...

[parrothd]

I'd go with the reversibles, less headache and easier install, I've seen enough people having to mess around with those aratetor pumps it's not worth the time or the few dollars saved.

[gregski]

Aerator pumps should end up faster

All of the tests that I've seen show that the aerator pumps are significantly slower than reversibles. The problem is that their flow rate is greatly reduced by any amount of head loss (pumping up against gravity in this case) - you will never reach anything close to their stated numbers like "1200 gph" in any real world application. The impeller pumps do not suffer as badly and will operate much closer to their stated numbers.

[trayson]

Interesting. I had a ballast puppy (640GPH) in my Supra that was hooked to a 370 pound tube sack. I had both the Rule 2000 (1200GPH) and a Attwood Tsunami (1200GPH) as over the side pumps to fill 750's.

From what I remember it took about the same amount of time for the impeller pump to fill a bag to about 350 as the aerators took to fill up the 750 bags. Of the two aerators, the Rule was actually faster than the Tsunami.

The impeller might have finished 350lbs a little before the aerator finished around 700lbs, but it certainly wasn't done in 1/2 the time of the aerator. So my first hand experience was that the aerators were significantly faster. I probably should have timed it to be more scientific, but honestly I just wanted to start surfing instead of documenting results...

[bergermaister]

All of the tests that I've seen show that the aerator pumps are significantly slower than reversibles. The problem is that their flow rate is greatly reduced by any amount of head loss (pumping up against gravity in this case) - you will never reach anything close to their stated numbers like "1200 gph" in any real world application. The impeller pumps do not suffer as badly and will operate much closer to their stated numbers.

I guess I'm in the minority but... while there may be some efficiency loss with the aerator going uphill to the sacs (??), I've timed mine and they take a little over 7 min to fill an 1100 to about 95% capacity. Setup properly for priming with vented loops and check valves I'm going on 3 years without a single issue in my aerator system.

I could see the benefit and ease of reversibles if you have timers on them, but don't timer modules run about $150 a pop?

[gregski]

The most scientific test I've seen documented was over at centurioncrew. I posted the summary here: https://forum.moomba.com/showthread.php?10894-Ballast-Fill-Times&p=232104#post232104 His motivation was to study the effect of the sprinkler valves (and removing the internal springs) but he also tested with a brass shut off valve which is more relevant since it would add a little more resistance but not much overall and is probably representative of the loss going through the various couplers and connectors in a typical system.

Here are the results for the Johnson Ultra Ballast pump:
Advertised @ 13.7 GPM or 822 GPH
Unrestricted Test: 13.5 GPM or 810 GPH
1” brass 12 vdc valve: 12.5 GPM or 750 GPH

Here are results for the Tsunami 1200 aerator pump:
Advertised @ 20.0 GPM or 1200 GPH --- Actually should be 1100gph or 18.3gph @ 12V for comparison
Unrestricted Test: 13 GPM or 780 GPH
1” brass 12 vdc valve: 7.5 GPM or 450 GPH
For starters, all of the aerator pumps only perfermed at about 70% of their spec in his unrestricted test (3' of 1.25" hose only). Then, as soon as you add some more resistance in the form of a shut off valve, the aerator performance drops to <40% of the spec number. The impeller pump? It lost about 8%.


while there may be some efficiency loss with the aerator going uphill to the sacs (??)
The loss isn't due to efficiency, it's just a fact of the pump design that the manufactures tell you about.
Here's the spec sheet for the Tsunami: http://www.attwoodmarine.com/userfiles/store/product/files/1003/tsunamibilge-spec.pdf
Their spec is 1200 gph @ 0' and 900 gph @ 3.3' of head. (0 gph at 11') -> 25% loss in flow (and remember the "real world" performance is probably half of their spec)
And a spec sheet for the Johnson Ultra Ballast: http://www.pumpvendor.com/media/johnson/Johnson_10-24690_series.pdf
Their spec is 822 gph @ 0 psi and 810 gph @ 1.4 psi -> 1.5% loss in flow, almost nothing
(note: 1.4 psi = 38.8 inH2O or 3' 2.8" so these are comparing the same thing).
The Johnson pump doesn't lose flow rate but it does increase current draw. The aerator loses flow but uses the same current. Pump design is a trade off.

Combining the data, I would estimate that the real world flow of the Johnson pump would go from about 750 gph to 743 gph as an 1100# sack fills (to 24" high). Likewise, I estimate the Tsunami would go from 450 gph to 383 gph.
I used the 1" brass valve test as a starting point to represent the real world head loss and then calculated 60% of the change of flow due to head loss at 39". Note that this is all based on pumps installed such that they have to pump the output water upwards against gravity. It would be a totally different thing to use one "over the side" where the pump is held above that ballast bag. Flow would probably be close to the "unrestricted test" or better if you actually set up a bit of a siphon.

Overall, my point is there's much more to real world performance than a spec like "1200 gph" but I do believe the available impeller pumps are faster than aerator pumps. They are also more expensive.

[trayson]

while there may be some efficiency loss with the aerator going uphill to the sacs (??), I've timed mine and they take a little over 7 min to fill an 1100 to about 95% capacity.


The most scientific test I've seen documented was over at centurioncrew. I posted the summary here: https://forum.moomba.com/showthread.php?10894-Ballast-Fill-Times&p=232104#post232104 His motivation was to study the effect of the sprinkler valves (and removing the internal springs) but he also tested with a brass shut off valve which is more relevant since it would add a little more resistance but not much overall and is probably representative of the loss going through the various couplers and connectors in a typical system.

For starters, all of the aerator pumps only perfermed at about 70% of their spec in his unrestricted test (3' of 1.25" hose only). Then, as soon as you add some more resistance in the form of a shut off valve, the aerator performance drops to <40% of the spec number. The impeller pump? It lost about 8%.


The loss isn't due to efficiency, it's just a fact of the pump design that the manufactures tell you about.
Here's the spec sheet for the Tsunami: http://www.attwoodmarine.com/userfiles/store/product/files/1003/tsunamibilge-spec.pdf
Their spec is 1200 gph @ 0' and 900 gph @ 3.3' of head. (0 gph at 11') -> 25% loss in flow (and remember the "real world" performance is probably half of their spec)
And a spec sheet for the Johnson Ultra Ballast: http://www.pumpvendor.com/media/johnson/Johnson_10-24690_series.pdf
Their spec is 822 gph @ 0 psi and 810 gph @ 1.4 psi -> 1.5% loss in flow, almost nothing
(note: 1.4 psi = 38.8 inH2O or 3' 2.8" so these are comparing the same thing).
The Johnson pump doesn't lose flow rate but it does increase current draw. The aerator loses flow but uses the same current. Pump design is a trade off.

Combining the data, I would estimate that the real world flow of the Johnson pump would go from about 750 gph to 743 gph as an 1100# sack fills (to 24" high). Likewise, I estimate the Tsunami would go from 450 gph to 383 gph.
I used the 1" brass valve test as a starting point to represent the real world head loss and then calculated 60% of the change of flow due to head loss at 39". Note that this is all based on pumps installed such that they have to pump the output water upwards against gravity. It would be a totally different thing to use one "over the side" where the pump is held above that ballast bag. Flow would probably be close to the "unrestricted test" or better if you actually set up a bit of a siphon.

Overall, my point is there's much more to real world performance than a spec like "1200 gph" but I do believe the available impeller pumps are faster than aerator pumps. They are also more expensive.

Okay, let's take Berg's real world test then.

His claim: 95% capacity of an 1100 bag in "a little over 7 minutes".

So crunching the numbers 1100 pounds * 95% = 1,045 pounds.

Assume that "a little over 7 minutes" = 7.25 minutes. That means that he's theoretically getting 144 pounds/minute. That converts to 1,036 gallons/hour. If we compare that to your assumption of the real world rate of a Johnson, Berg's pump is over 38% faster than the Johnson.

So, I am pretty confident that Berg can tell time. However, I'm not totally sure that he's spot on with Capacity estimations (You should see the drunk texts he sent me one night after a "few" beers).

So let's tweak his capacity number to be more conservative and look at the range of possibilities:

95% capacity = 1036 GPH
90% capacity = 982 GPH
85% Capacity= 927 GPH
80% capacity = 872 GPH
75% capacity = 818 GPH
70% capacity = 764 GPH
65% capacity = 709 GPH

If we assumed that the Johnson had the your real world estimate of between 750GPH and 743GPH, then the fill time would be as follows:
750GPH to 95% capacity = 10 minutes
743GPH to 95% capacity = 10 minutes 7 seconds

750GPH to 65% capacity = 6 minutes 51 seconds
743GPH to 65% capacity = 6 minutes 55 seconds


So, my takeaway from this is that for the speed of Berg's aerators to be equal to your Johnson real world estimation, that means he'd have to be grossly mistaken and think that a 68% - 69% full bag was 95% full.

Likewise with Berg claiming that an 1100 bag fills to 95% capacity in 7.25 minutes, if we then assumed your estimate of a real world flow rate of 450 to 383gph, then that would mean that Berg is claiming that a bag is 95% full when in fact it's only between 42% and 35% full.

In summary, I think Berg could certainly be over-optimistic in saying that his bags fill to 95% capacity in a bit over 7 minutes. However, for him to be off by the magnitude required to equal your dismal real world estimate of aerator flow rates is almost inconceivable. There's no way that Berg is going to think a bag that's 40% full is 95% full, EVEN IF HE's BEEN DRINKING HEAVILY.

[gregski]

Hmmm.

Berg, I assume your pumps are installed, not used "over-the-side", right?

The real discrepancy is between Berg
I've timed mine and they take a little over 7 min to fill an 1100 to about 95% capacity. and Fresh Fish via CenturionCrew
Unrestricted Test: 13 GPM or 780 GPH I'd rather believe berg but like you said, his measurement is a little casual. Plus, I've got to trust Fresh Fish's 780 gph measurement because he was trying his best to do a controlled experiment. So if we assume 780 gph is the best case scenario, the only way to get berg's observation to fit is to take one of your calculations for something "a bit more than 7 minutes" and "a bit less than 95%". But then yeah, there wouldn't be much more loss due to other components. I don't know anything about the brass valve that was used in the test so maybe that was too restrictive.

Then the conclusion would be that the aerator pumps perform about the same as the impeller pumps but are very sensitive to installation, so be careful.

The 25% loss in flow due to head is real and straight off of the spec sheet. Can those pumps produce much suction, if primed? Maybe it's better to mount them higher? But it seems like priming would be impossible.

[trayson]

Hmmm.

Berg, I assume your pumps are installed, not used "over-the-side", right?



Berg has the hard installed Attwood Tsunami T1200 pumps. They have 1" hardware all the way around and utilize vented loops so they would be subject to head pressure to the tops of the gunwales. He basically has as good of aerator system setup as I can imagine... Not really much room for improvement from what I can remember...

I'm sure he'll chime in with respect to his accuracy. But then again, we might have to wait a bit, because it's almost happy hour...

[trayson]

The real discrepancy is between Berg and Fresh Fish via CenturionCrew

I agree. I'm a CPA/MBA, so I find it interesting to crunch the numbers and do analysis. I made a cool spreadsheet comparing the components needed for aerator vs. impeller. I've also added a tab that compares fill time and GPH (i.e. the figures I've just been posting above). Finally, I have a "cool" use for the Excel that I labor behind all day long!

I think it would also be cool to have real world specs from people with installed impeller systems. I sent out a text to a buddy of mine with Johnsons and I'll see if he's ever timed his and the size of bags in his rear lockers. He has a 23' like I do, so his time would probably be pretty relevant. When I get feedback, I'll of course share.

Heck, if he and I are running the same sized bags, maybe next summer we'll do a shootout! :-)

[parrothd]

Not sure I'd trade the reliability of the reversibles to save 3-4 minutes of fill time. Haven't all newer boats moved away from the other pumps ?

[jstenger]

This is starting to sound like a tower speaker thread!

[bergermaister]

Ok I"m not near as think as you drunk I am...

I often stand there, beer in hand, kids screaming, stereo blasting, proudly examining the MASSIVE flow rate of my ballast system sucking the river level down so quickly that guys are panicking and kicking over sand chairs to go push their boats out and reset their anchors. I gaze down the beach for exactly 7.32457 minutes and wonder if any of the bikini clad women on the beach are admiring my system too. Typically when a cute blond in neon pink looks up and starts to smile I snap back to reality, most often from a smack up side the head from an irritated wife or daughter, and realize the rear compartment is popping open and the side wall is bowed over so far it's starting to melt against the exhaust manifolds and the rudder is firmly embedded in the sand; I figure the bags are about full. Okay maybe 95%ish. Time to chug the last of this beer and go surfing.

Wow, talk about a deja vu


I admire, and sometimes question, the dedication and enthusiasm that goes into flow testing the different possible setups. But any guy who's bragging about how big his Johnson is,,,, well to that I say

'my pump's bigger than yers'

[wolfeman131]

That may be the absolute best reply I've ever read on this forum.

[gregski]

Nah, I'm like Trayson. I'm an engineer so my life is sometimes all about measurement, analysis and number crunching. So at work, I can have a spreadsheet open with pump flow data and it looks like real work but I'm actually thinking about boats. Now, if I get lost in some damn analysis when I'm actually on the boat, then please, smack me up side the head.

My guests usually question my sanity about buying a boat and then trying to sink it more and faster.

[jmvotto]

That may be the absolute best reply I've ever read on this forum.



Amen, that is good stuff..

Fwiw I thought the impeller pumps were about 1 minute per 100 lbs. give or take.


Here is a real life comparison from 2010 by members here.

https://forum.moomba.com/showthread.php?10357-Ballast-Timings-and-comparisons&highlight=Pump+flow

[trayson]

Ok I"m not near as think as you drunk I am...

I often stand there, beer in hand, kids screaming, stereo blasting, proudly examining the MASSIVE flow rate of my ballast system sucking the river level down so quickly that guys are panicking and kicking over sand chairs to go push their boats out and reset their anchors. I gaze down the beach for exactly 7.32457 minutes and wonder if any of the bikini clad women on the beach are admiring my system too. Typically when a cute blond in neon pink looks up and starts to smile I snap back to reality, most often from a smack up side the head from an irritated wife or daughter, and realize the rear compartment is popping open and the side wall is bowed over so far it's starting to melt against the exhaust manifolds and the rudder is firmly embedded in the sand; I figure the bags are about full. Okay maybe 95%ish. Time to chug the last of this beer and go surfing.

Wow, talk about a deja vu


I admire, and sometimes question, the dedication and enthusiasm that goes into flow testing the different possible setups. But any guy who's bragging about how big his Johnson is,,,, well to that I say

'my pump's bigger than yers'

Best.
Response.
Ever.

This is why Berg is KING of the MOOMBA FORUM.

All hail the king.

[trayson]

Nah, I'm like Trayson. I'm an engineer so my life is sometimes all about measurement, analysis and number crunching. So at work, I can have a spreadsheet open with pump flow data and it looks like real work but I'm actually thinking about boats. Now, if I get lost in some damn analysis when I'm actually on the boat, then please, smack me up side the head.

My guests usually question my sanity about buying a boat and then trying to sink it more and faster.

Likewise.

And when I had my Supra, I had a number of boats stop by and ask me if I needed help and had the Coast Guard called out to find a "black and white Supra" that appeared to be sinking... hehehe.



Also, I talked to my friend that has a 2012 MB F23 Tomcat with huge rear lockers (his actual term was "big ass" lockers). To fill his bags to capacity, it's about 10 minutes real world with the Johnson reversibles. So pretty much dead on with the assumed real world figures you were quoting for that you suggested.

So, adding reversibles would add about $300 to my project costs and 3 minutes to bag fill-ups. Many state that the impeller pumps are "more reliable" but if I can follow the lead of "Berg the King", maybe I can have them as reliable as his. And for me, not having impellers to replace will be kinda nice. I've had a reversible and neither pump is perfect, both are reliable and unreliable in different ways.

[bergermaister]

Where do I get my hands on a 3800GPH pump that Jesse was testing???

I've wasted plenty of time trying to figure out how to plumb dual T-1200's per bag, ok quadruple if you count drains. I mean if it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing right?

Trayson - back to the drawing board here.

[valleywine]

Why are some of you having trouble with bags filling up when the switch off? Is this the siphoning you're referring to? I haven't had this problem. And what is the vented loop for? I don't believe I have this. My bags will overflow through the drain line when full.

[trayson]

Where do I get my hands on a 3800GPH pump that Jesse was testing???

I've wasted plenty of time trying to figure out how to plumb dual T-1200's per bag, ok quadruple if you count drains. I mean if it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing right?

Trayson - back to the drawing board here.

I am guessing it was this one:
http://www.amazon.com/Rule-17A-General-Centrifugal-3800-GPH/dp/B000O89BVM

And you'll only need 1 1/2" hose for it! LOL!

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41yUfLRLIlL._SX450_.jpg

[gregski]

Here is a real life comparison from 2010 by members here.
Thanks Joe, I knew I had seen some other data. That data isn't quite as bad as I estimated, but I wasn't off by an order of magnitude. The Tsunami 800 actually got 450 gph (56%), the 2000 got 1058 gph (53%) and the 3800 got 1804 gph (47%)
Here's one more data point: http://www.tigeowners.com/forum/showthread.php?13621-Ballast-Pump-Flow-Comparison He used a Tsunami 1200 to fill a 400# bag in 4:37 (average of 3 trials) which is 623 gph (52%)... it would take him 12:03 to fill an 1100 to 95% :)

Maybe berg also has magic grits that cook in 5 minutes?

So a Tsunami at 623 gph will fill 1100# bag in 12:31, while a Johnson at 750 gph will take 10:40. I don't think 2 minutes is hugely significant. But I do think there are several data points that at least show the Tsunami 1200 pump isn't going to be faster than the Johnson pump, so if you are making other trade offs to get "faster" pumps you may wish to revisit those.

[jmvotto]

Maybe berg is measuring in Beers again ( 7.4 beers per bag):o

[parrothd]

How does an aerator pump work with a center bag and connected IBS? Can it drain both bags flat? My guess is you need separate fill/empty pumps for the IBS... Just asking not sure..

I have a forth reversible pump that I use to fill under the cooler seat or to fill an extra bag. My longest fill time is my center/IBS, 10-15 minutes but we rarely change it, usually fill it and forget it for the day. We sometimes have a long run back to the slip so I suck the bags completely dry, probably doesn't save anything but helps me justify running 3000+ of ballast.. :)

[trayson]

How does an aerator pump work with a center bag and connected IBS? Can it drain both bags flat? My guess is you need separate fill/empty pumps for the IBS... Just asking not sure..

I have a forth reversible pump that I use to fill under the cooler seat or to fill an extra bag. My longest fill time is my center/IBS, 10-15 minutes but we rarely change it, usually fill it and forget it for the day. We sometimes have a long run back to the slip so I suck the bags completely dry, probably doesn't save anything but helps me justify running 3000+ of ballast.. :)

My understanding is that aerator pumps don't generate enough pressure to piggyback bags.

That's another reason I'm going to just have the big 1180 gravity bag in my XLV.

[bergermaister]

Maybe berg is measuring in Beers again ( 7.4 beers per bag):o

Beer is the reason I get up every afternoon!


You may be able to double up filling bags on a single aerator but you wouldn't have much luck with draining both off one pump. I remember asking WM about this a couple years ago and while in theory it "could" work if gravity were on your side and the planets are in alignment and that cute blond in the pink is still on the beach when you get back, but in reality the piggy back bag doesn't drain into the main bag very well and the pump loses prime when the main bag goes down and you're done.


Hard tank + Piggy Back bag on top = Happy Hour.
Bag + Bag = No Beer.

[valleywine]

Why are some of you having trouble with bags filling up when the switch off? Is this the siphoning you're referring to? I haven't had this problem. And what is the vented loop for? I don't believe I have this. My bags will overflow through the drain line when full.

Anybody know?

[trayson]

Why are some of you having trouble with bags filling up when the switch off? Is this the siphoning you're referring to? I haven't had this problem. And what is the vented loop for? I don't believe I have this. My bags will overflow through the drain line when full.

My understanding is this:

When you have a factory system with the sprinkler valves, the valves get closed and keep the bags from passively filling while the boat is underway.

I had a bad valve that was allowing one of my bags to fill while underway. $11 and a trip to home depot solved that.

If you have a custom aerator system and a scupper on the bottom, I believe that it's forcing water into the fill line, pushing it through the pump (despite it being powered off), and it passively fills the bag while underway.

With an impeller system, if you have bags that are filling while underway, it's most likely because your impeller is getting worn out and water is being forced past the impeller of the pump. I had this happening with my Supra that had a Ballast Puppy impeller pump.

I've been told by wakemakers that a vented loop can stop this. However, others on this forum have stated that it does not "fix" the issue. So who knows. I have read that going from the scupper through hull to just a mushroom will help with the passive filling issue. I assume it's because the scupper style through hull functions as a ram intake for the water...

As far as the siphoning, it's simply gravity creating a siphon because the intake thru hull is lower than the water in the bag and it pulls water out (through the aerator pump, the impeller pump should stop this and the water shouldn't go further than the impeller). The vented loop is designed to stop this from happening by putting an air break in the flow of water. Water can likewise be siphoned out when the bag fills higher than the drain thru hull, and people criss cross their vent lines to deal with this.

I'm certainly no expert, but that's what I've gathered thus far.

[jstenger]

Check out my thread. I have pictures showing my scooper cut off and shortened to get the pump lower.

https://forum.moomba.com/showthread.php?t=22171

I was able to get rid of the sprinkler valves, and the bags never self filled.

[valleywine]

Cool thanks guys. Seems to me that if you are having problems with the factory setup (wear and tear or worn out components) it would be logical to rip everything out and use a reversible system with the existing drains used as an overflow. I'm happy enough for now the way it is until I start having issues, I guess.

[bergermaister]

Impatience can also be the mother of ingenuity. Well that and beer.

[jmvotto]

Grayson, was thinking of putting these in the bow piggy backed of the center 1180, since the ibs won't fit without structural modification.

http://www.wakemakers.com/fly-high-mastercraft-xstar-bow-sacs.html

Ran the a buddy's ibs on top of the seats and really liked the wave

[trayson]

Grayson, was thinking of putting these in the bow piggy backed of the center 1180, since the ibs won't fit without structural modification.

http://www.wakemakers.com/fly-high-mastercraft-xstar-bow-sacs.html

Ran the a buddy's ibs on top of the seats and really liked the wave

Seems like it'd be easy to use the rear factory bags instead of spending money on a couple new bags. they wouldn't fill up all the way of course... just a thought.

[jmvotto]

Yes, sold my rear bags in 12

[bergermaister]

I'd be a little cautious with adding too much weight on top of the playpen seating. I found a support beam cracked underneath it - running 800 plus a short stocky guy up front and bouncing over waves didn't help.

[jmvotto]

I'd be a little cautious with adding too much weight on top of the playpen seating. I found a support beam cracked underneath it - running 800 plus a short stocky guy up front and bouncing over waves didn't help.

yeah only ran it one day for a few hours...like the no bags visible look..

[jasonwm]

We have a lot of this information outlined in our Resources section (albeit it can be somewhat difficult to find).

The end results, after doing this a few thousand times, is that aerator vs. impeller comes down the specific scenario. There are just too many variables, like budget, target performance, system configuration, etc. that come into play to make a single blanket statement about which is "best". We try to provide as much information as possible so people can make an informed decision about what is best for their application.

I know I'm a little late to the party, but I just wanted to provide some information that is specific to Moombas based on their factory ballast system:

1. A vented loop alone will not solve passive filling issues if you use the factory scupper thru-hull. You need to also remove the "scoop" portion of that fitting to prevent water from being driven into the intake when the boat is running through the water. Once that's done, a vented loop on the center locker will solve any passive filling/draining issues. For the rear bags, you only need to use check valves, as passive filling is not a symptom when bags are installed above the floor.

2. It's really not possible to link multiple bags together with aerator pumps and expect them to work correctly. Plan on having a dedicated fill/drain pump for each location to ensure everything works correctly.

Like Berg said, with a properly designed and installed system, you'll have just as much reliability out of aerator pumps as you would out of reversible pumps, it just takes a little more work to get there.

[trayson]

We have a lot of this information outlined in our Resources section (albeit it can be somewhat difficult to find).

The end results, after doing this a few thousand times, is that aerator vs. impeller comes down the specific scenario. There are just too many variables, like budget, target performance, system configuration, etc. that come into play to make a single blanket statement about which is "best". We try to provide as much information as possible so people can make an informed decision about what is best for their application.

I know I'm a little late to the party, but I just wanted to provide some information that is specific to Moombas based on their factory ballast system:

1. A vented loop alone will not solve passive filling issues if you use the factory scupper thru-hull. You need to also remove the "scoop" portion of that fitting to prevent water from being driven into the intake when the boat is running through the water. Once that's done, a vented loop on the center locker will solve any passive filling/draining issues. For the rear bags, you only need to use check valves, as passive filling is not a symptom when bags are installed above the floor.

2. It's really not possible to link multiple bags together with aerator pumps and expect them to work correctly. Plan on having a dedicated fill/drain pump for each location to ensure everything works correctly.

Like Berg said, with a properly designed and installed system, you'll have just as much reliability out of aerator pumps as you would out of reversible pumps, it just takes a little more work to get there.

Thanks for the followup. Good to hear considering the pile of WM stuff that's sitting in my garage from the black friday sale! Spencer and I went over everything and he said the same as you.

Hope to see you guys sometime on LBC! I'll be there for a week this summer.

[jasonwm]

Yes, definitely need to connect on the water this year so we can see the finished product.

[trayson]

Well, we dug into the ballast upgrade this weekend and I can now see why there's all the talk about reversible systems being easier than aerators.

I decided to forego using the OEM scupper intake for my new aerator pumps and went with 3 dedicated 1" thru-hulls for each of my new pumps. I am capping the OEM scupper intake and will reserve that for down the road when I will likely add a 4th pump that's a reversible to use for filling misc bags...

Trying to remove the scupper or trying to grind off the scupper fins was too much work. so I didn't go that route.

So I had to fit a thru hull, ball valve, and the pump itself for each of the 3 new pumps. Everything seemed pretty straightforward until I realized that not only did the stack of components need to fit in the bilge but I also needed clearance for the lever on the ball valves to be able to work AND I also needed to be able to spin on the pump without the output port hitting anything as I spun it on.

I ended up having to get pretty creative. One intake goes straight up. Another has an elbow and the pump is mounted horizontal. The last one ended up mounted at a 45 degree angle after the thru-hull. But I think it's going to work okay. Another thing we did was cut off a couple inches of the handles of the ball valves. That way we could mount the valves with the handles pointing either towards or away from the pump. it also gave us the flexibility to mount the valves so the handles rotated down to the floor if needed. We just took the cutoff wheel to the handles and it's amazing how much flexibility is added when those handles are trimmed down to size.

Here you can see a pic of the starboard side of the bilge. the empty ball valve is the factory ballast scupper that I won't be using at this time. The horizontal pump has the output cocked to about 1 or 2 o'clock because that's how we had to orient it to clear the vdrive.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-h_S92aN4wEI/VNgej7br0ZI/AAAAAAAAXvA/vLcWN77kOWo/s800/20150208_183412.jpg

This is the starboard side. It seemed to fit best a little behind the fresh water intake for the engine with a 45 degree elbow between the thru-hull and the ball valve. My Flush Pro takes up a lot of the space forward of the fresh water intake.
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-ZjQIGF0yrQ0/VNgemQcOnpI/AAAAAAAAXwc/Z8k818e8m9c/s800/20150208_183248.jpg

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-tqGhWbaQshk/VNgzYEUcW4I/AAAAAAAAXxU/EpMy5vLgEho/s800/20150208_200709.jpg


An attempt at a view of it all:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Hcp8uXqSWBo/VNgenV7RljI/AAAAAAAAXyA/gYlNfUOOlRs/s800/20150208_183435.jpg

[parrothd]

Packing nut access? Once it starts to go your in that space a lot.

[trayson]

Another thing we did is used a step drill bit to cut the holes in the hull for the thru-hull fittings. I have to say that it worked great. The largest step was the 1 3/8 size that I needed, so it was easy to just drill until the whole bit was through.

Likewise, I'll be reusing the brackets that were used by the factory to hang the drain pumps. I just had to drill out the hole in the brackets to fit the thicker pumps. Again, the step bit was perfect for making the hole bigger.

http://www.toolfix.com.au/images/C/stepped%20drills.jpg

[trayson]

Packing nut access? Once it starts to go your in that space a lot.

Can't tell you off the top of my head. both the starboard pumps are in front of the OEM ballast thru hull. and I think I'll still be able to get in there okay? I don't know. I guess I'll find out. the holes are drilled, not like I can turn back!

[jasonwm]

Looks good, I don't see any issues with priming based on your pump location and attitude.

Be careful reusing the factory drain pump configuration, that design introduces a lot of issues related to priming. We would much prefer having the pump connected directly to the bag, which will give you rock-solid drain performance.

[sivs1]

I'm following this thread, I don't want to derail it, but am curious if what I am thinking would work. Right now I have the GIII system but with upgraded bags all running off the standard single pump and sprinkler valves.

Here's what I'm thinking, if I replace the sprinkler valves and single pump with three of these pumps; http://www.amazon.com/Attwood-Corporation-Aerator-Tsunami-800Gph/dp/B001O0D6KQ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1423501102&sr=8-1&keywords=tsunami+pump

Can I use the single thru hull intake? do I need an intake for each pump?

At this point I am trying to piece this together as funds are available. Having a baby and building a house all while trying to make my GIII system better.

Thanks for you input

[trayson]

Looks good, I don't see any issues with priming based on your pump location and attitude.

Be careful reusing the factory drain pump configuration, that design introduces a lot of issues related to priming. We would much prefer having the pump connected directly to the bag, which will give you rock-solid drain performance.

Is this what you suggest then? I am actually thinking about something similar to this but with the 1 1/8" hardware and the 1" hose instead of constricting myself back down to 3/4... Thoughts?

http://www.wakemakers.com/media/extendware/ewminify/media/inline/92/d/33007.jpg

http://www.wakemakers.com/media/extendware/ewminify/media/inline/63/7/2013-10-01-19.10.55.jpg

[trayson]

I'm following this thread, I don't want to derail it, but am curious if what I am thinking would work. Right now I have the GIII system but with upgraded bags all running off the standard single pump and sprinkler valves.

Here's what I'm thinking, if I replace the sprinkler valves and single pump with three of these pumps; http://www.amazon.com/Attwood-Corporation-Aerator-Tsunami-800Gph/dp/B001O0D6KQ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1423501102&sr=8-1&keywords=tsunami+pump

Can I use the single thru hull intake? do I need an intake for each pump?

At this point I am trying to piece this together as funds are available. Having a baby and building a house all while trying to make my GIII system better.

Thanks for you input

First off, I found out that there's two styles of Tsunami pumps. The ones on ebay and amazon are typically the ones that have the weird 1 1/8 thread that you can't find hardly anything to mate up with. The ones that wakemakers sells are a smidge more expensive, but they have the inlet that's 1" NPT and that's TOTALLY worth it because it'll screw directly into a 1" ball valve or an elbow or whatever typical plumbing stuff you're using from the thru hull.

What I found is that our Factory intake is a "scupper" and would have forced water into the pumps even when they were turned off.

I chose to go with dedicated thru-hulls for each of my 3 pumps. I could have possibly gone with fewer and a Tee, but I wanted to do it right from the start.

I am finding that had I gone with reversible, it would have most certainly made for an easier install. I'm still okay with my decision, because I do think I'll still have a faster system in the end, but the cost difference between reversible and aerators (if you're upgrading your hoses and everything) starts to narrow. especially when you have to make trips to the plumbing store for more pieces. The factory thru-hull with the scupper could be reused with a reversible pump.

The pumps off ebay and amazon with the 1 1/8 on the intake are fine for your drain pumps though.

I chose to have separate thru hulls for my drain and vent also, because it was cheaper to buy another thru-hull than to buy a Tee and a check valve.


Honestly it's hard to piece together an upgrade because I've found that if you simply upgrade to 3 pumps, you'll have to deal with the scupper forcing water through them when off (i.e. new thru hulls or grinding off the fins of the scupper) and you'll also have to deal with whether the 3/4" thru hull is really enough for 3 pumps at once. Then you're hooking 3/4" hose to the pumps... If you ever decide to go to larger diameter hose (1" or 1 1/8") then you're possibly having to replace some of the fittings you just bought.

I did contemplate going with 1" lines on the fill side and then 3/4 on the drain side, because then I could reuse a lot of my 3/4" bag fittings and stuff on the drain side and save a little bit of money that way... But in the end, I'm leaning towards going with bigger lines all around, even if it means I'm blowing a little more money on the front end.

[jstenger]

The factory scooper can be removed a couple different ways. One way is to use piano wire to cut thru the adhesive. Another way, which I did, is to set up a 'puller' to pull the scooper free. I placed a piece of threaded rod thru the center of the scooper. In the bilge area, I placed a large washer and nut. On the bottom of the boat, I placed a spreader bar, washer and nut across two short pieces of wood, which sat on both sides of the scooper. Tightening the nut pulled the scooper towards the spreader bar, and broke it free from the adhesive.

[trayson]

The factory scooper can be removed a couple different ways. One way is to use piano wire to cut thru the adhesive. Another way, which I did, is to set up a 'puller' to pull the scooper free. I placed a piece of threaded rod thru the center of the scooper. In the bilge area, I placed a large washer and nut. On the bottom of the boat, I placed a spreader bar, washer and nut across two short pieces of wood, which sat on both sides of the scooper. Tightening the nut pulled the scooper towards the spreader bar, and broke it free from the adhesive.

Good to know. I'm just keeping mine to use for a future upgrade of adding a 4th pump that's a reversible as a pump to fill auxiliary bags...

[bergermaister]

http://www.wakemakers.com/media/extendware/ewminify/media/inline/63/7/2013-10-01-19.10.55.jpg

Shortest length of hose there you can = best priming w/o issues.

[parrothd]

So is that a drain? Shouldn't it be on the low side? On the back side of the bag..

[trayson]

So is that a drain? Shouldn't it be on the low side? On the back side of the bag..

It's just a pic from wakemakers. Yes, the drain would obviously be at the stern of a bag in the rear lockers...

[jasonwm]

I'm following this thread, I don't want to derail it, but am curious if what I am thinking would work. Right now I have the GIII system but with upgraded bags all running off the standard single pump and sprinkler valves.

Here's what I'm thinking, if I replace the sprinkler valves and single pump with three of these pumps; http://www.amazon.com/Attwood-Corporation-Aerator-Tsunami-800Gph/dp/B001O0D6KQ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1423501102&sr=8-1&keywords=tsunami+pump

Can I use the single thru hull intake? do I need an intake for each pump?

At this point I am trying to piece this together as funds are available. Having a baby and building a house all while trying to make my GIII system better.

Thanks for you input
Read these two articles we have regarding upgrades to the 2002-2008 Gravity III system, I think they'll be beneficial for you:

1. 2002-2008 Moomba Gravity III Ballast Upgrades (http://www.wakemakers.com/resources/2002-2008-supra-moomba-gravity-ballast-system-upgrades/)
2. Pre-09 Moomba Ballast Upgrade Options (http://www.wakemakers.com/resources/pre-09-moomba-factory-ballast-system-upgrade-information/)

We've been upgrading these boats since 2005, and have pioneered most of what you see people doing on the forum, so I'm completely confident saying we have the most knowledge and experience out there.


Is this what you suggest then? I am actually thinking about something similar to this but with the 1 1/8" hardware and the 1" hose instead of constricting myself back down to 3/4... Thoughts?

http://www.wakemakers.com/media/extendware/ewminify/media/inline/92/d/33007.jpg

http://www.wakemakers.com/media/extendware/ewminify/media/inline/63/7/2013-10-01-19.10.55.jpg
Yep, we even offer a 1" version: http://www.wakemakers.com/attwood-1200-drain-pump-quick-connect.html

:)


First off, I found out that there's two styles of Tsunami pumps. The ones on ebay and amazon are typically the ones that have the weird 1 1/8 thread that you can't find hardly anything to mate up with. The ones that wakemakers sells are a smidge more expensive, but they have the inlet that's 1" NPT and that's TOTALLY worth it because it'll screw directly into a 1" ball valve or an elbow or whatever typical plumbing stuff you're using from the thru hull.

What I found is that our Factory intake is a "scupper" and would have forced water into the pumps even when they were turned off.

I chose to go with dedicated thru-hulls for each of my 3 pumps. I could have possibly gone with fewer and a Tee, but I wanted to do it right from the start.

I am finding that had I gone with reversible, it would have most certainly made for an easier install. I'm still okay with my decision, because I do think I'll still have a faster system in the end, but the cost difference between reversible and aerators (if you're upgrading your hoses and everything) starts to narrow. especially when you have to make trips to the plumbing store for more pieces. The factory thru-hull with the scupper could be reused with a reversible pump.

The pumps off ebay and amazon with the 1 1/8 on the intake are fine for your drain pumps though.

I chose to have separate thru hulls for my drain and vent also, because it was cheaper to buy another thru-hull than to buy a Tee and a check valve.


Honestly it's hard to piece together an upgrade because I've found that if you simply upgrade to 3 pumps, you'll have to deal with the scupper forcing water through them when off (i.e. new thru hulls or grinding off the fins of the scupper) and you'll also have to deal with whether the 3/4" thru hull is really enough for 3 pumps at once. Then you're hooking 3/4" hose to the pumps... If you ever decide to go to larger diameter hose (1" or 1 1/8") then you're possibly having to replace some of the fittings you just bought.

I did contemplate going with 1" lines on the fill side and then 3/4 on the drain side, because then I could reuse a lot of my 3/4" bag fittings and stuff on the drain side and save a little bit of money that way... But in the end, I'm leaning towards going with bigger lines all around, even if it means I'm blowing a little more money on the front end.

Trayson is starting to experience why it makes sense to go with reversible pumps for a lot of people. You gain a dedicated vent/overflow and don't have to do ANY work for that functionality, and fitting everything in the boat is much easier.


The factory scooper can be removed a couple different ways. One way is to use piano wire to cut thru the adhesive. Another way, which I did, is to set up a 'puller' to pull the scooper free. I placed a piece of threaded rod thru the center of the scooper. In the bilge area, I placed a large washer and nut. On the bottom of the boat, I placed a spreader bar, washer and nut across two short pieces of wood, which sat on both sides of the scooper. Tightening the nut pulled the scooper towards the spreader bar, and broke it free from the adhesive.
Careful here, the factory intake has screws that secure it in place to prevent it from rotating. If you remove that fitting and replace it with a standard mushroom intake you'll have four exposed holes in the hull that need to be dealt with. Ideally they should be filled and gelcoat matched, although we've had some customers just apply sealant to the screws and run them back in place, which would probably be fine.

Regardless, that's why we suggest cutting the scupper off, which has basically been accepted as the standard practice by everyone since we started recommending it.


So is that a drain? Shouldn't it be on the low side? On the back side of the bag..
When the boat is stationary in the water, the front of the bag actually is the lowest point. That's typically how the boat will be when you're trying to get the bags completely flat at the end of the day, and from a packaging standpoint it's much easier to put the pump there than it is between the bag and transom.

[trayson]

QUESTION:

There is factory wiring in the bilge for each of the (3) actuators on the sprinkler valves and also another wire that goes to the (1) factory fill pump.

I assume that things are wired from the factory so that the fill pump turns "on" with any of the 3 switches and the sprinkler valves turn "on" (open) with EACH of the 3 switches.

So I'm thinking as I rewire the factory wiring to my new 3 fill pumps that I'd simply use the sprinkler valve wiring to power each of the pumps, and the factory wiring for the OEM fill pump would go unused?

Does that sound right?

[trayson]

Yep, we even offer a 1" version: http://www.wakemakers.com/attwood-1200-drain-pump-quick-connect.html



Oh, cool. Spencer couldn't find that SKU when I was on the phone with him this morning! Thanks for the link. (I was just going to make my own, but I'm down to buy yours if it saves me a buck or two, haha)



I'll read those articles tonight.

[jasonwm]

QUESTION:

There is factory wiring in the bilge for each of the (3) actuators on the sprinkler valves and also another wire that goes to the (1) factory fill pump.

I assume that things are wired from the factory so that the fill pump turns "on" with any of the 3 switches and the sprinkler valves turn "on" (open) with EACH of the 3 switches.

So I'm thinking as I rewire the factory wiring to my new 3 fill pumps that I'd simply use the sprinkler valve wiring to power each of the pumps, and the factory wiring for the OEM fill pump would go unused?

Does that sound right?
Check the gauge of wire on the solenoids, I don't know what it is off the top of my head, but we don't suggest using it, so I'm guessing that's because it's relatively small. You need to be able to support 5A of current without significant V drop, so you can run the math on that based on the AWG you measure. If it's sufficient by all means go that route.

Oh, cool. Spencer couldn't find that SKU when I was on the phone with him this morning! Thanks for the link. (I was just going to make my own, but I'm down to buy yours if it saves me a buck or two, haha)

I'll read those articles tonight.
Haha, I'll have to give Spence a hard time about that!

[kaneboats]

Several folks on here have successfully run one Tsunami off the sprinkler lead with no problems.

[jasonwm]

Has any one calc'd the V drop? Just because the pump runs doesn't mean it's operating at maximum capacity.

[trayson]

http://news.waytekwire.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/Wire-Gauge-Guide.jpg

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd282/tburdette303/GeoMetroForum/wirechart.jpg

[gregski]

Has any one calc'd the V drop? Just because the pump runs doesn't mean it's operating at maximum capacity.

What gauge wire is used for those lines? If it's 20AWG for example, you have about 0.033 ohm/m. Let's guess 3m of wire, so 0.1 ohm. I don't know how much current those draw at 14V but it's fused for 5A so we can calculate using that which will definitely be worst case. V=5*0.1 = 0.5V. So you would lose 0.5V based on those assumptions which probably isn't too bad of a deal.

[bergermaister]

What gauge wires came on the pump pigtails? Why not keep it simple and match that. Bet it's at least 16ga.

Or you could steel some wiring out of an amp installation kit just to be safe.

[gregski]

Bet it's at least 16ga.

16ga is 0.013 ohm/m. So the same calculation would result in a 0.2V drop.

[bergermaister]

Once you get 3-4 beers into it does the size of the wire really matter?

[jmvotto]

Transon, I used 16 gage wire from lowes to create my Deutch connectors for my GIV on the OBV, also spliced wye connectors for dual rule fill pumps for the system. Worked without a problem.

Ps I have the schematic for the GIII wiring system at my office, pm me an email if you interested.

[trayson]

One of the things I'm thinking about is that I'll soon be running the 1" hose from the pump near the v-drive up under the floor to ultimately connect to the fill port on the front basement center bag.

I could feel that there's a zip tie securing the 3/4" hose to the wire loom for the ballast pumps. But it's just a few inches under the floor and I'll be able to cut that zip tie pretty easily. I'm wondering if there's likely to be more zip does further up under the floor that are going to be inaccessible.

I'm wondering if I'm ultimately going to need to pull the floor to run the 1" hose to the front/center locker.

If that's the case, how does the floor pull up? I'd assume it's screwed down but where the screws are under the carpet is a whole other question...

[jstenger]

On my 2010 OBV, the screws were in each corner, and one was under the seat. You will have to feel for them thru the carpet.

[gregski]

I upgraded that hose to 1" and like you was hoping to do it without pulling the floor up but it was just a bit too tight and there were a few more zip ties under the floor. Pulling the floor up is easier than I thought. The hard part is simply finding the screws in the carpet. I used an awl and tap/pecked at the carpet until I heard a metallic clink identifying the screw. At least in the LSV there was a screw in each corner which was easy to find but the corner by the drivers seat was offset a bit and took a little bit of hunting to find (but it wasn't under the seat and very easy to get to).

[trayson]

I upgraded that hose to 1" and like you was hoping to do it without pulling the floor up but it was just a bit too tight and there were a few more zip ties under the floor. Pulling the floor up is easier than I thought. The hard part is simply finding the screws in the carpet. I used an awl and tap/pecked at the carpet until I heard a metallic clink identifying the screw. At least in the LSV there was a screw in each corner which was easy to find but the corner by the drivers seat was offset a bit and took a little bit of hunting to find (but it wasn't under the seat and very easy to get to).

Thanks for the tip. I'm thinking I might get stuck pulling the floor panels. I hope it ends up easy(ish).



So, I jumped back into the project this weekend. I decided to tackle the drain line for the front center locker. However my subwoofer box was blocking the access to the pony wall that has the hole in it where the drain hose goes to the thru-hull. My plan was to pull a new 1" hose using the old 3/4" hose, then repurpose the 3/4" hose and thru-hull for a vent line and drill a new 1" thru-hull for the bigger drain hose.

My method for pulling the new hose with the old hose was actually spot on. I simply drilled 2 holes through the walls of each of the hoses, then inserted the 3/4" hose into the 1" hose and secured them together with a zip tie. I have to say that fishing that hose was a BI***. It sucked. I had my wife trying to feed it from the center locker and I was pulling from the Bow starboard locker. I ended up having to cram 1/2 my body into that locker. Getting both shoulders in there was not fun or easy, but I did it. Pulling and yanking with both hands I finally got the bigger hose through that hole and into the bow!

The thru hulls I got for draining were 1" black 90 degree elbows, so that it would be easier to make the hose loop up to the highest point of the gunwales for hopefully less passive draining. I put the new thru-hull next to the existing one.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-Qt_9xjb9ND0/VOtd4vDj8iI/AAAAAAAAYDc/ljDiuaLLxVU/s800/20150222_150010.jpg

I made my own "drain adapter" which was fine because I could customize the length of the hose and make it perfectly centered on the bag. I took a step drill bit and enlarged the hole in the factory pump bracket and reused that for mounting the new drain pump. It's a slick setup. I reused the Deustch connector from the old pump, making it plus and play. The 16 gauge wiring should be fine per the tables I've seen on voltage drop.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-0gG-IJ5-IXI/VOtd0W8a0sI/AAAAAAAAYDM/3We-xMKL4po/s800/20150222_123147.jpg

Next I removed the factory drain and fill lines for the rear lockers since I'm upgrading those to 1" hose. Turns out that the factory drain lines are going to be just about perfect length to criss cross and work as vent lines. I just ran the hoses along the top back walls of my lockers (up by where the ski pylon is).

I ran my fill lines from the bilge up the inner back wall of the locker and then up to the outside of the locker. I should have enough hose, and hopefully not too much to create too much head pressure.

The drain lines are going to be criss crossed also. They will go from the pump, up behind the engine (above the wakeplate fluid reservoir) and continue up along the gunwales to a thru hull I'll drill near the front of the lockers (by where the OEM drain thru hulls are. Again, I'm re-purposing the 3/4" factory drains to be vents and drilling new 1" drains with 1" 90 degree elbow thru-hull fittings. I still have to run the fill line for the front locker. I'm not looking forward to that and am leery that I'll have to pull the floor. We'll see. I also have to tighten down the fill pump thru-hulls and put the 5100 in there. I'll wait to do that until I have an assistant.

I also took a look at the carpeted "trim" on my lockers. With the factory trim, my 1100 bags aren't able to fill all the way towards the front end of the locker. the carpeted pieces are really constraining that end of the bag. I really see little purpose to having the pieces there other than cosmetics. I suppose it's POSSIBLE that they're adding some kind of lateral support, but I'm not sold on the necessity of them. Pretty sure I'll be taking them out.

Picture of carpeted trim piece:
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-jsdzOyBXd34/VOtd6EJJkjI/AAAAAAAAYDk/Jjh5RJRq7dQ/s800/20150222_141821.jpg

Picture with trim piece removed:
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-3xGMC8BBtZs/VOtd1qPUJwI/AAAAAAAAYDU/APSEkQ4aPVY/s800/20150222_141852.jpg

[trayson]

These are the thru-hulls I went with for the drains.

http://pacificpowertraininc.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/90-Degree-bLACK.jpg

Since my goal was to have the hose loop up to be at the TOP of the gunwales to avoid passive draining, the 90 degree elbow allows me to point the hose UP. So I think it'll work well.

[bergermaister]

Pulling and yanking with both hands I finally got the bigger hose through that hole

That is the most disturbing description I've ever seen on here...

[trayson]

That is the most disturbing description I've ever seen on here...

LMFAO!

Almost in tears.

[bergermaister]

That carpeted wall you are thinking of leaving out, at least on the starboard side, is protection for your gas filler and vent lines from anything that gets stuffed into the rear compartment - not just cosmetic. May protect your bilge line as well if it is routed through there.

I'd strongly suggest putting it back in place and deal with a crumpled bag.

[wolfeman131]

That is the most disturbing description I've ever seen on here...

I debating on scrolling any further for fear of the pics that may have been posted.

[trayson]

That carpeted wall you are thinking of leaving out, at least on the starboard side, is protection for your gas filler and vent lines from anything that gets stuffed into the rear compartment - not just cosmetic. May protect your bilge line as well if it is routed through there.

I'd strongly suggest putting it back in place and deal with a crumpled bag.

Something to consider. Especially for all the swords, knives, throwing stars and axes I carry in there along with the running chainsaw and random explosives.


At least it wouldn't affect me when I weight for surfing regular! hehe.

[trayson]

So, last night I got a little bit more done. I measured out the run of hose that will go from my fill pump in the bilge to the front center bag. I can feel that it's zip tied to the electrical wiring about 6" up under the floor forward of the bilge. I have a bad feeling that it's likewise zip tied along the run and that I'm going to have to remove the floor to get the new hose in and old hose out. We shall see.

I picked the spots for my rear drain thru hulls and drilled the holes and then installed the new thru-hull ports for the drains. I placed them about a foot forward of the existing drain holes (that are being repurposed as vents). I also did my run so that they are criss crossed. and I used a 90 degree thru hull to keep the hose at the TOP of the gunwale. Hopefully all that will prevent passive draining.

I mounted one of my drain pumps. it's going to be just behind the locker to engine compartment divider with the barb sticking through the hole in the corner of that divider. I enlarged the hole a little on the divider to accommodate this. I didn't like the idea of the bag putting all that weight on the pump (I'm sure it would have been fine) and it frees up a smidge more capacity in the bag without that hose and pump taking up bag space. I'll still have a very short run to the drain port on the bag (just a few inches), so I'm sure priming won't be an issue.

I ended up with just the right amount of hose. I've got a couple feet left to make the drain port to drain pump adapters, which is more than enough for the two I have left to make. All my runs are measured out or installed. with a little extra to spare. The only runs that might be a smidge short are the drain lines that are repurposed to vents. if that's the case, I can easily lengthen them or run new hose. Those are easy to get to and I have some extra 3/4" hose laying around.

I put in my order to wakemakers for the remainder of fittings I ended up needing. I changed my mind part way in and decided to go 1" for drains instead of just using my 3/4". so that meant 3 flow rite ports on the bag and 3 more flow rite barb connectors. I also guessed on the fittings I'd need off my pumps (straight vs. 90 degree) and I ended up wanting more straight and very few 90's, so I ordered more of the straights and will be returning the 90's. Since wakemakers is so close that stuff should arrive in a day or two.

So once I get the fittings I can install the last pump. And then I'll have my buddy come over for the final installation of the fill thru hulls. I've waiting to install them with the 3m 5200 until I have another set of hands to help me out.

[bergermaister]

What, no pictures?

[sivs1]

Forget pictures, I want detailed diagrams so when I tackle this I can reference everything trayson did.

[trayson]

What, no pictures?

I was hurrying to try and get as much as I could done and it was dark by the time I finished. I promised the wife that I'd finish up working on the boat in time for us to watch the previous night's episode of Walking Dead before we went to sleep!

I'll take pics later and post em. You can count on that.


Forget pictures, I want detailed diagrams so when I tackle this I can reference everything trayson did.

Don't worry, I'll be around and will be happy to lend any insight and advice...

[jester]

I was hurrying to try and get as much as I could done and it was dark by the time I finished. I promised the wife that I'd finish up working on the boat in time for us to watch the previous night's episode of Walking Dead before we went to sleep!

I'll take pics later and post em. You can count on that.

.

I am sorry I do not accept the in a hurry thing. The wife should understand the boat and needing photos, I mean she lets you go out on the water in January and February so she should understand by now. Photos or it did not happen :)

[trayson]

I am sorry I do not accept the in a hurry thing. The wife should understand the boat and needing photos, I mean she lets you go out on the water in January and February so she should understand by now. Photos or it did not happen

Okay, okay. This morning before leaving for work, I got some pics.

This is where the drain pump will live. just peaking out from the engine side of the divider, and I made the hole a little bigger in the divider accordingly.
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-lqrjoVT_bCg/VO3zhJ5HiOI/AAAAAAAAYEo/3nGHrCY-4Jo/s800/20150225_074423.jpg

For the drain thru-hulls, I used the 90 degree fittings to ensure I could loop the hose to the highest point to prevent passive draining. This is the bow, and the original 3/4" drain was repurposed to a vent.
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-GN-d5IEU6Yw/VO3zlZOiBfI/AAAAAAAAYFA/ahEwYgPxM4c/s800/20150225_074609.jpg

The drain for the Port bag goes behind the engine, along the top of the gunwales, and exits in front of the Starboard bag. So criss crossed and located decently forward. The 90 degree fitting keeps the hose pointing up.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-0ee2S76GSU0/VO3zmvT7WaI/AAAAAAAAYFI/keTDQIfQ0z4/s800/20150225_074313.jpg

The outside view of this drain port. it's on the right, forward of the bilge pump output and what was another drain but is now the opposite side bag's vent.
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-kBGeKNKEDJo/VO3zqMAEW2I/AAAAAAAAYFY/YTMUD6UsLM0/s800/20150225_074208.jpg

[trayson]

Drain pump mounted in center front locker. I re-used the bracket, but bore out the center of it more with a step drill bit. Tape was put around the hose clamps to smooth out any sharp edges.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-J4PRGTRy8GM/VO3zn6HQjJI/AAAAAAAAYF8/TsSbjxhBCvI/s800/20150225_074831.jpg

My wakemakers shipment should arrive today with the rest of my fittings. so I can make a little more progress soon.

[jmvotto]

nice ballast work, I was way too cautious about drilling into the bottom of the hull.. Now I am a pro after a heater install and the the ballast upgrade. but below water line still scares me..

[trayson]

nice ballast work, I was way too cautious about drilling into the bottom of the hull.. Now I am a pro after a heater install and the the ballast upgrade. but below water line still scares me..

The heater install is next. any tips or suggestions would be great!!!
I'm planning on putting the heater blower/exchanger unit basically under the driver's seat.

[jmvotto]

In the obv I had a 4 vent system Two ppl outs in the walk way. One pullout behind the drivers seat and a fixed vent under the helm . I mounted everything under the helm on the back side of the sub hump . Also put two shutoff valves at the engine tap

The oem xlv heater only has two and no foot warmer for the driver . Boohoo

[trayson]

So I got a package of fittings from Wakemakers yesterday. So I made the hose adapter for the starboard drain pump. I measured and tried to get it nice and centered on where the bag's port will be.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-m8a4bg9lG7M/VO87rxNdICI/AAAAAAAAYGw/lcprOcWeRKw/s800/20150225_185537.jpg

The back side of the starboard side drain pump:
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-BCaif8HAb4U/VO87tIABirI/AAAAAAAAYG4/4NVC2orMP3c/s800/20150225_185551.jpg

And the Port side pump. I'm hoping this will be on the mark for priming...
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-6pEZkFP0JSI/VO87uWC_ZJI/AAAAAAAAYHA/vynqXJYPjyM/s800/20150225_185623.jpg

Engine side of the Port drain pump.
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-Xgp1D6suP_A/VO87qla-1CI/AAAAAAAAYGo/xBzvYaWNw4s/s800/20150225_185600.jpg

[moombadaze]

doesn't look centered to me, are you sure you measured correctly ?

[trayson]

doesn't look centered to me, are you sure you measured correctly ?

I think it might be an optical illusion.

However, if I find out it's not optimal, then I'll just whip out another length with another hose scrap that I have leftover. No worries there.

[newty]

Read the rules... No whipping anything out on the forum. Serious consequences for that sort of behavior.

[trayson]

^^^^ I can see why your a moderator. Nothing gets past you.

[slipperyrockTKE300]

"Read the rules... No whipping anything out on the forum. Serious consequences for that sort of behavior. "

There always has been and there still is.... one moderator who has the power over the other moderators to whip it out.

[viking]

What a turn this thread has taken!


http://youtu.be/EYlDbv7MqE8

[bergermaister]

I need that as a ringtone.

[newty]

What a turn this thread has taken!


http://youtu.be/EYlDbv7MqE8
Lol that's what ran through my mind as I was typing that. Lol awesome show.
So many great one liners.

[trayson]

I think I should contact the moderators because my thread is getting de-railed. Oh wait, it's the moderators that are the ones derailing my thread!

[newty]

It's a good thing. It means people are actually reading your thread.

[mmandley]

De-Railing a thread is a form of Flattery

[trayson]

Well, turns out I didn't have to kill my carpet to get my floor up. My floor on my 2008 XLV is held in by screws from the inside of the seat bases. The only screws that are going down are the three obvious ones that are at the driver's feet.

But the floor did have to come up to remove the 3/4 in hose (zip tied in) and to route the 1" hose in its place.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-iaDErTt2-3E/VPfOnUFa4HI/AAAAAAAAYKQ/AsSAg5KB5Ds/s800/20150304_182045.jpg

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-l_FJzkltQlc/VPfOrChFIzI/AAAAAAAAYKg/0GKSIW20pKM/s800/20150304_182035.jpg

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-oRyMwXdjRDQ/VPfOsQ4MowI/AAAAAAAAYKo/2BvKTY_6vZQ/s800/20150304_182052.jpg

[beat taco]

De-Railing a thread is a form of Flattery
I'll admit I thought about Trayson today!
And going Hybrid!
http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/03/04/754b04bf605767f22125477f48f22c88.jpg

[jmvotto]

Well, turns out I didn't have to kill my carpet to get my floor up. My floor on my 2008 XLV is held in by screws from the inside of the seat bases. The only screws that are going down are the three obvious ones that are at the driver's feet.

But the floor did have to come up to remove the 3/4 in hose (zip tied in) and to route the 1" hose in its place.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-iaDErTt2-3E/VPfOnUFa4HI/AAAAAAAAYKQ/AsSAg5KB5Ds/s800/20150304_182045.jpg

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-l_FJzkltQlc/VPfOrChFIzI/AAAAAAAAYKg/0GKSIW20pKM/s800/20150304_182035.jpg

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-oRyMwXdjRDQ/VPfOsQ4MowI/AAAAAAAAYKo/2BvKTY_6vZQ/s800/20150304_182052.jpg


Maybe its me or my OCD :o I would power wash the gas tank before you button that puppy back up.

[mmandley]

maybe its me or my ocd :o i would power wash the gas tank before you button that puppy back up.

bwahahahaha

[gregski]

Maybe its me or my OCD :o I would power wash the gas tank before you button that puppy back up.
No way. My OCD is worried that if I hit that with a hose or power washer, the splash back would make an even bigger mess in parts of the boat above the floor and then I'd spend a week cleaning the interior cursing myself. I'd leave it alone, I can't see any benefit to cleaning it.

[trayson]

No way. My OCD is worried that if I hit that with a hose or power washer, the splash back would make an even bigger mess in parts of the boat above the floor and then I'd spend a week cleaning the interior cursing myself. I'd leave it alone, I can't see any benefit to cleaning it.

If I do anything, I'll use some simple green and a few rags. It wouldn't get it perfect but could tidy it up a bit so that jmvotto's head doesn't explode.

we'll see.

[gregski]

Oh, I just remembered I found a damaged fuel line when I pulled the floor up. The layout in the XLV is different, but I would spend a couple of minutes looking for any pinch/wear points caused by the floor panels.
https://forum.moomba.com/showthread.php?24359-Fuel-line-damaged-by-floor-boards

[trayson]

Oh, I just remembered I found a damaged fuel line when I pulled the floor up. The layout in the XLV is different, but I would spend a couple of minutes looking for any pinch/wear points caused by the floor panels.
https://forum.moomba.com/showthread.php?24359-Fuel-line-damaged-by-floor-boards

Good call. and nice sleeve job. I had a bend of what is now my vent line for a rear bag that I put a sleeve of the 1" hose on the HDPE to help avoid wear. Of course I tried to smooth out the run as well.

[trayson]

No pictures (gasp) but we got the intake thru-hulls tightened down and sealed up with the 3m 5200. Damn, I wish I would have had one of those crow foot wrenches. that would have made life a TON easier. Live and learn. Luckily, we won't have to be doing that again!

I am getting close. I just have to put the check valves in the fill lines and throw the fill fittings on. Oh, and put the deustch connectors on the fill pumps.

I've also been working on swapping the carpet for hydroturf. it never ends....

[trayson]

So, tonight I connected the 1" hose to the 3 fill pumps. I installed the 3 check valves on the fill lines. And I wired the pumps to the deustch connectors so the electrical is all done.

I got the new Flow Rite fittings on the rear bags and put the flow right fittings on the fill lines. I put one of the bags in, and the other can be popped in at any time.

Some pics of the pumps with the check valves in place:
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-E3mvAfZ7OEg/VQkXfnsG-SI/AAAAAAAAYS0/Vs3GrTpX5Jc/s800/20150317_194103.jpg

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-oMeEOMe3JOk/VQkXg396lyI/AAAAAAAAYS8/8XLkymKqEug/s800/20150317_194044.jpg

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-K5VCRcnR-b4/VQkXiZTayhI/AAAAAAAAYTE/QMmo1jse_rY/s800/20150317_194024.jpg

[trayson]

Tested out the ballast system on Saturday. It performed as expected overall. I have a few places I need to look at.

The 90 degree fitting that I have on my center locker fill pump has some drips coming off it when I was filling. Likewise some of the check valve to hose connections were dripping a little. Guess I need to tighten the hose clamps on those.

Thinking I might need to add one more bag under the surfside seats to make the wave a little better... We'll see how it goes.

[jester]

At least it is the hoses dripping and their is not a big leak from the holes under the boat. It is always nice to see the month long project come together and be tested.

[trayson]

No doubt. I was a little concerned about the thru-hulls (because those are the big risk) but pleased when a little tighten of the hose clamps will do it.

I also noticed that when I was draining that I could see the pumps speed up when I started the boat and upped the voltage. I just thought that was interesting.

[trayson]

So things are good so far with the new ballast system. I've been working on phase II.

I bought a Johnson impeller pump and plumbed that to the factory scupper thru-hull. the pump will live on the outside of the rear corner underseat storage locker, with most of it in the gunwale but with easy access to the front for easy impeller changes. it will be wired to the "extra" switch location on the dash.

I am plumbing it with two check valves so I have the "drain above water line" setup. I really like the audible/visual indication when the draining is done (despite the run-dry protection on the pumps).

This pump is basically going to be an "auxillary" pump. I put one of the stock rear locker bags (50x20x10 @ 390lbs) under the port seats, going from in front of the OEM cooler cutout to the base of my batteries.

Since I was at it, I added two more "zones" to this pump. Each zone has a PVC ball valve to isolate it. Zone 1 is described above. Zone 2 is another bag that will go under the Port bow seat. I figure I have the bag and it's just a few dollars in fittings, so why not have the option for another bag up there. For the last zone, the pump will go to a ball valve, then to a brass garden hose quick release fitting. I'll then have a coil garden hose that I can use for spraying down anything that needs it, for spraying kids when they challenge me to a water fight, and also (with a different hose end) I will use it to suck out any pesky remaining water that is in my bilge that the bilge pump isn't picking up.
http://www.midlandhardware.com/assets/images/products/583775.jpg

I've got about 1/2 the install done on this pump, so it should be operational next time I use the boat.

[bergermaister]

and also (with a different hose end) I will use it to suck out any pesky remaining water that is in my bilge that the bilge pump isn't picking up.

That right there is pretty damn clever. Should work well for the basement where water always seems to end up too.

[beat taco]

That right there is pretty damn clever. Should work well for the basement where water always seems to end up too.
Hmm wonder where he saw that?:D

[mmandley]

I would caution you on using an Impeller pump <unless I misunderstood> for a Spray head like that. You will need a bleed off valve. If not each time you stop spraying the hose the pressure on the pump will burn up the pump, or blow a line.

I would use an aerator style pump to power the spray nozzle, or just connect it to a through hull and let the weight of the boat in the water force the water up the hose. Won't be as much pressure but works none the less.

[gregski]

I would use an aerator style pump to power the spray nozzle, or just connect it to a through hull and let the weight of the boat in the water force the water up the hose. Won't be as much pressure but works none the less.
The second option wouldn't work. Water would only come out of the hose if you held the end of the hose below the water line of the lake. If you held it up any higher, nothing would come out, the water level in the hose would stay the same as the lake. (The weight of the boat doesn't really matter, only that it does create an air space inside the boat that is below the water level of the lake)

[trayson]

I would caution you on using an Impeller pump <unless I misunderstood> for a Spray head like that. You will need a bleed off valve. If not each time you stop spraying the hose the pressure on the pump will burn up the pump, or blow a line..

Fair enough, I hadn't thought of that.. I can get a different nozzle for the hose, one that doesn't shut off. I think I saw one at the plumbing store that would work...