Engine overheated, starter won't turn the flywheel, but I can turn it w a screwdriver

[chaneya]

Today, ran my '11 Mobius LSV EFI for about 10 minutes without raw water pump pumping water - impeller failed. Anyway, The extent of the run was me getting pulled out on a wakeboard and ran at 22mph/3100rpm's for about 200 yards. I smelled something an instructed the driver to kill it. Noticed temp was right around 210 and the impeller obviously wasn't pulling from the intake. Ran the boat at idle for maybe another 5 min tops trying to get it to take water, no luck - killed it and got a tow back to the ramp. Got it home and ran the garden hose through until it came down to 125 or so, turned the key - CLUNK. Turned the key a couple more times and the starter began freewheeling - as in, loud whirring, but not turning the flywheel. I found that to be strange, so I removed starter, turned flywheel 1 full rev by hand/screwdriver. Got heavy resistance a few times and let it sit for a while, came back and it would turn pretty freely for a few turns again - chalked that up to compression and bleed off. Put power directly on the starter on a shop floor, it engaged and turned freely. Checked oil, normal color, normal smell.

My next steps are to remove plugs and try to turn the crankshaft by hand by the belt. If it is still turning a full revolution, I'm taking the starter to have it tested. Am I looking in the wrong direction? I noticed this post as a post of interest (https://forum.moomba.com/showthread.php?15256-02-LSV-loud-clunk-when-trying-to-start&highlight=hydrolock). Maybe I have the same issue? How many dollar bills are we talking here ball park if I have in fact hydrolocked one or more cylinders?

What is a decent explanation for the starter behavior? A couple times I got the expected starter behavior for a seized engine, the next I got a freewheeling starter, but no flywheel movement. Also, how to explain the flywheel moving by hand? I assumed a seized engine would not make a full revolution, is that true?

Just how screwed am I here? I think I covered all of the important stuff that I know anyway...

[chaneya]

To clarify, the bendix shaft fully extends and begins to spin when under power on a shop floor. Not sure what is happening when it tries to engage the flywheel.

[parrothd]

To clarify, the bendix shaft fully extends and begins to spin when under power on a shop floor. Not sure what is happening when it tries to engage the flywheel.


You ran water thru it without the engine running? Pull all the plugs and turn it over by hand and see if water comes out.

If it was that hot and you added cold water you may have cracked the heads..

[chaneya]

You ran water thru it without the engine running?

Yes - towed it home and started flushing water through at about 180 degrees after trying to crank it once. However, I'm assuming the intake scoop could have been forcing cold water in while we were being towed back. I'll try to get the plugs pulled first thing tomorrow and report back.

With that said, still don't understand the starter behavior.

[maxpower220]

Take starter to an electrical rebuild shop and have them look at it. I had a similar issue, cost $30 to repair.

[chaneya]

Take starter to an electrical rebuild shop and have them look at it. I had a similar issue, cost $30 to repair.

Wow, really? Even with the overheating issue occurring at the same time? Seems like a spectacular coincidence, or maybe something else happened at the same time that caused the starter to fail. Either way, I'm hoping for the best - thanks for the encouragement!

[cornrickey]

So it's my opinion that 210 will not hurt the heads. Splashing cold water on them, possibly but. And it's a large but, The temp gauge is very inaccurate to useless when water isn't running through it. I'm surprised you had a reading. Either it was ran long enough for the sending units to get heat sink from the engine structure or you had had enough water running through it. To be able to "smell" it while boarding is not a good sign.

[Welly72]

it's my experience as a mechanic that when you overheat a motor and you can't get it turning over at that point you have seized the motor. you're either looking at needing to rebuild your heads or rebuilding the motor entirely more than likely you'll have to rebuild the motor entirely which will set you back a couple thousand. if you shop for your own parts you may be able to get a shop to do it for you for $1000 in labor. Good luck

[chaneya]

So it's my opinion that 210 will not hurt the heads. Splashing cold water on them, possibly but. And it's a large but, The temp gauge is very inaccurate to useless when water isn't running through it. I'm surprised you had a reading. Either it was ran long enough for the sending units to get heat sink from the engine structure or you had had enough water running through it. To be able to "smell" it while boarding is not a good sign.

The smell was the impeller burning, I'm almost certain. That or burning paint from the sides of the water jacket. But I lean to impeller.

[chaneya]

it's my experience as a mechanic that when you overheat a motor and you can't get it turning over at that point you have seized the motor. you're either looking at needing to rebuild your heads or rebuilding the motor entirely more than likely you'll have to rebuild the motor entirely which will set you back a couple thousand. if you shop for your own parts you may be able to get a shop to do it for you for $1000 in labor. Good luck


This was my first thought and still lingers in the back of my mind as the worst case scenario. However, I don't believe I would be able to turn it by hand if it were truly seized.

[Lake Rat]

First thing....check your impeller and let's go from there. I've seen some pretty bad impellers out there that still flowed plenty of water to not cause overheating. Check the fins of the impeller and that the inside splined bushing didn't separate from the rubber part. Take needle nose pliers on the inside of the splined bushing and FIRMLY spread them apart holding the bushing still and then turn the outside rubber part and make sure they move together and not "spinning" on each other. Do a search on here or youtube about impellers if you need a visual on the How To.

[zabooda]

Running at 22mph, the impeller is virtually none existant except as a restriction device to limit hydrostatic head to the engine. That is why you run your boat on plane if you need to get back to your trailer if you discover a failed impeller and you failed to carry a spare. The impeller is used while off plane.

[chaneya]

Pulled the plugs and there was water in every cylinder. About 4 ounces came rolling out of #5 and #8. The rest just had a little bit in the ends of the plugs.

Cranked it by hand from the flywheel a little bit, put the starter back in, tried it and it shot water out both sides and quit again. Then the starter was doing the same thing as yesterday.

Took the starter back off and tried turning it by hand more, but I can tell it's seizing. Right now I can't even turn it. I guess I'll call around and see if anyone has had one of these before.

My first question is, do I need to pull the engine to assess the damage? Or can I get into the problem areas without lifting it out of the boat?

[parrothd]

Sounds like you fried the starter, were you trying to start the boat with the engine full of water?

How fast did they tow you back to the dock 30mph?

Guess it doesn't matter, you need to get a new starter and crank it over without the plugs in until all the water is out. Then change the oil, and see if it runs...If you're lucky you didn't bend the connecting rods or crack the heads.

My experience with this is only with 2 cycle engines, get the water out asap and then use starting fluid and several sets of spark plugs to get it going then run the crap out of it turn burn all the water out. Followed with lots and lots of fogging oil..

[chaneya]

Sounds like you fried the starter, were you trying to start the boat with the engine full of water?

How fast did they tow you back to the dock 30mph?

Guess it doesn't matter, you need to get a new starter and crank it over without the plugs in until all the water is out. Then change the oil, and see if it runs...If you're lucky you didn't bend the connecting rods or crack the heads.

My experience with this is only with 2 cycle engines, get the water out asap and then use starting fluid and several sets of spark plugs to get it going then run the crap out of it turn burn all the water out. Followed with lots and lots of fogging oil..


They pulled me back at about 5mph. Are you thinking the water scooped in and caused the damage? I'm leaning that way too.

I'll go back at it tomorrow with trying to turn the flywheel with a long heavy screwdriver. I wish there was a good way to get hold of the crank pulley to turn it. I can see there are two sets of holes where I could get some kind of spanner tool in there. I expected there to be something on the front of the pulley where I could get a socket and turn it.

[Welly72]

Regardless of how you tried to start the boat motors should never have water in them! Unless you have water is in the fuel or put water directly down the carb. My best guess if you have water in the cylinders is a cracked block or warped heads. Lets pray for warped heads because you can have them milled down and rebuilt for a couple hundred and fix the problem if it is not a bad warp maybe .060 over. hard to say exactly without being there and putting eyes on lt. but towing or running water through it wouldn't cause water to leak in if there wasn't a bigger problem its just not possible,
"Sounds like you fried the starter, were you trying to start the boat with the engine full of water?"
If this were true if any of us fried a starter we could get water in the engine??? I hope Im wrong and you find a small issue and not a big one but water in motor is usually a big problem.

Drain the oil and see if any water comes out, or see if is a different color kind of milky or gray.

[parrothd]

"Sounds like you fried the starter, were you trying to start the boat with the engine full of water?"
If this were true if any of us fried a starter we could get water in the engine??? I hope Im wrong and you find a small issue and not a big one but water in motor is usually a big problem.

Drain the oil and see if any water comes out, or see if is a different color kind of milky or gray.

No I think you've missed the point.

It sounds like he over heated, took the boat home, connected the hose without it running, which probably cracked the head, filled the cylinders and then when it cooled down on the temp gauge he tried (probably repeatedly) to start it. Not being able to compress the water in the engine wouldn't turn over and he kept trying until the starter was fried.

Hindsight is always 20/20, mistakes is how I learn, I did this with my jeep. lost all coolant and didn't let it cool long enough naturally, tried to add coolant 2 hours later and cracked both heads. Picked up some used/machined ones and it was back and running...

[maxpower220]

It is easy to remove the heads from the boat while the engine is still in the boat. Put down a lot of towels on the carpet, because it can be a mess.

Take lots of close up pictures of the head gaskets when you remove them. take the heads to a shop to check them for cracks, warpage, or other issues. Run a straight edge over the block and you will (at a minimum) need to inspect every cylinder/piston for cracks.

It is was "just" a head gasket or head, it would normally be on 1 side. You can do a compression check (if the starter will turn over the engine with no plugs in). And do a leak down test (Autozone rents the tools for free). That will help narrow down where the problem is. Youtube is your friend for doing these tests.

Just a thought.

[parrothd]

Maybe it flooded from the hose.. Fingers crossed..

[chaneya]

It is easy to remove the heads from the boat while the engine is still in the boat. Put down a lot of towels on the carpet, because it can be a mess.

Take lots of close up pictures of the head gaskets when you remove them. take the heads to a shop to check them for cracks, warpage, or other issues. Run a straight edge over the block and you will (at a minimum) need to inspect every cylinder/piston for cracks.

It is was "just" a head gasket or head, it would normally be on 1 side. You can do a compression check (if the starter will turn over the engine with no plugs in). And do a leak down test (Autozone rents the tools for free). That will help narrow down where the problem is. Youtube is your friend for doing these tests.

Just a thought.

Thank you. I'll look into all of this.

[jstenger]

I second that it was flooded when the hose was hooked to it. Under normal conditions, the raw water pump would keep the hose water from entering a non running engine. If the impeller was shot, then the water would make it to the engine and up into the exhaust manifolds. Without the engine running, the water would go thru the exhaust ports, thru the open valves, and into the cylinders.

[chaneya]

This evening I went back and continued turning the flywheel. I put the starter back on and it's actually turning the engine over multiple revolutions. Sometimes I have to take the starter back off and move the flywheel by hand a bit, but after putting the starter back on, it will turn it until I remove power from the starter. Applying power again results in the same whining sound from the starter. I think most of the water has sprayed out of the spark plug holes.

I'm going to have the starter tested just for kicks, and I suppose I'll look into what maxpower220 suggests above. If I get out of this whole thing for under $2k, I'll be thrilled.

I'll keep updating. I appreciate everyone's replies and thoughtful advice.

[chadjitsu1]

I second that it was flooded when the hose was hooked to it. Under normal conditions, the raw water pump would keep the hose water from entering a non running engine. If the impeller was shot, then the water would make it to the engine and up into the exhaust manifolds. Without the engine running, the water would go thru the exhaust ports, thru the open valves, and into the cylinders.

Where does the water and exhaust mix in the exhaust manifold, I would have thought that it would be nearly impossible to flood the engine through the exhaust ports unless you sealed the exhaust on the transom of the boat and just filled it with water. It seems weird that this would even be possible. I am not questioning what your saying just want to understand so I don't mess up my motor some day

[zabooda]

The water pump on the engine is the restrictor

[ninedriver]

Well this thread has my attention and raises a question.
If you use a fake a lake, should you start the engine before turning on the hose? If you turn on the hose first will it damage anything?

[zabooda]

You risk destroying your impeller. You always turn the water on first.

[chaneya]

Went back over today and got some video of the engine turning over. It will only turn over with the starter after bumping the flywheel forward a bit with a pry bar. Reinstall starter and it turns over. The sound it is making seems to indicate restriction in the engine. I guess it's time to pull the heads as soon as I figure out how. I think most of the water is out and I've been spraying fogging oil into the spark plug holes. I'm guessing I don't want to try and get it fired up until I have inspected the heads and other internal components?

http://youtu.be/MAxsQTOW5LY

[parrothd]

Are you trying to kill the stater and battery? Why are you cranking it so long? That battery is probably dead by now..

[ninedriver]

Have u checked the oil? Is it milky?

[chaneya]

Are you trying to kill the stater and battery? Why are you cranking it so long? That battery is probably dead by now..

I'm trying to push as much water out as possible. Battery is strong. 30 seconds cranking with 10 min cool down doesn't seem out of line for the starter. Besides, I'm operating under the assumption that the starter will need to be replaced anyway. I'm just trying to observe the behavior while turning. My only other concern about cranking it at this stage is scoring the cylinder walls if something is bent.

[chaneya]

Have u checked the oil? Is it milky?


I pulled the dipstick and it's pristine. I think that tells me that little to no water has seeped around the pistons, which should mean the cylinders aren't damaged. I would do a compression test while cranking, but I'm certain, at a minimum I have a blown head gasket or cracked/warped head. Someone recommended borrowing a compression test tool from auto-zone, I guess I could do that just to verify. But if water made it in, I have to believe there's problems around the heads.

[parrothd]

I'm trying to push as much water out as possible. Battery is strong. 30 seconds cranking with 10 min cool down doesn't seem out of line for the starter. Besides, I'm operating under the assumption that the starter will need to be replaced anyway. I'm just trying to observe the behavior while turning. My only other concern about cranking it at this stage is scoring the cylinder walls if something is bent.

Doubtful you'll get any info from a compression test, maybe a leak down, if you have the water out start it up and see what happens. If you bent something you're going to buy a complete crate engine. If the head is cracked you'll know cuz it'll run like crap.

[chaneya]

Doubtful you'll get any info from a compression test, maybe a leak down, if you have the water out start it up and see what happens. If you bent something you're going to buy a complete crate engine. If the head is cracked you'll know cuz it'll run like crap.

True. Confirmed that I have a bad starter, possibly weak. So you're saying get all of the water out, put in new plugs, new starter and hope it runs like crap? I agree with that plan.

[chaneya]

Took the starter to The George J Hust co. on Spring Grove Ave. in Cincinnati. These guys were pretty sharp. They bench tested it and said it was definitely bad and sounded like it may burn up. I asked him if it was weak, he said probably. Sold me a new starter for $180. I think I’m going to put new plugs in and see if it will fire at all on the new starter real quick and see if there's any change in movement of the crankshaft. If it hangs still, then I know somethings bent in the engine. I guess I run the risk of killing the new starter, but I’d rather go through two to find out what’s happening inside the engine before I take it somewhere and have them pull it apart down to the bottom. I can probably take the heads off myself to check the gasket and heads, which is what I’m banking on being the root cause of the water at this point.

[chaneya]

Got it started. :o Ran rough until all of the fogging oil burned off, but now it's purring like a kitty. Am I crazy to think I'm out of the woods? Shouldn't it be running rough if there were a head gasket or head problem? It does have a mild sputter now and then at idle after a burst of 2500 to 3500 rpms. The new plugs were already gapped at .40, so .30 was out of the question. Maybe that's causing some rough idle? Otherwise, there's water in the oil, which I intend to change at least a couple times over the next few days. Would that cause white smoke from the exhaust at higher rpm bursts? The old impeller was completely shot, all of the flaps/vanes/whatever had burned off. Is it possible that the water got in this way and didn't cause any damage to the heads? I'm anxious to get it running with water, but nervous that I may do some real damage if water gets in while it's running vs. while I was trying to crank it. Here's a vid of the first startup:

http://www.youtube.com/attribution_link?a=yHW0mNCkG4U&u=/watch%3Fv%3DaJ6rG9XtFQw%26feature%3Dem-upload_owner

[parrothd]

Did you have the water on?

[chaneya]

Did you have the water on?

No, not for that short run. Ran it for a little less than 2 minutes (without impeller) and shut it down. I'm hesitant to put the water on until I'm satisfied that it isn't going to get back into the engine.

[gregski]

Wow, you are on thin ice...

I don't think I buy the theory that water could have got in only by hooking up a fake-a-lake or hose. I have heard a theory that when a motor overheats, it can pull water in through the exhaust when it cools (hot=expands, cool=contracts=suction). I've never quite liked this explanation as it seems it would always be happening to some degree in our boats every time we shut them off in the water. But it could explain how you might get water into the cylinder if not through the head/gasket.

I think I'd do a leak down test or pay a shop to do it. (Any decent automotive shop will probably be better than the dealer) If that comes back OK, then you can be confident you aren't likely to cause more damage.

[chaneya]

Wow, you are on thin ice...

I don't think I buy the theory that water could have got in only by hooking up a fake-a-lake or hose. I have heard a theory that when a motor overheats, it can pull water in through the exhaust when it cools (hot=expands, cool=contracts=suction). I've never quite liked this explanation as it seems it would always be happening to some degree in our boats every time we shut them off in the water. But it could explain how you might get water into the cylinder if not through the head/gasket.

I think I'd do a leak down test or pay a shop to do it. (Any decent automotive shop will probably be better than the dealer) If that comes back OK, then you can be confident you aren't likely to cause more damage.

I tend to agree gregski, but it's running as smooth as ever. With that said, I'll follow any advice that gives me confidence that it's not going to dump water back in as soon as I get it on the water. So the leak down test comes back ok, I'm good to put it on the water?

[gregski]

After that, I'd probably run it on the hose for a while. Watch the exhaust for steam. Check the oil once more. Then I'd be happy.

[chaneya]

One more thing I forgot about because I didn't think much of it...

When we first pulled it off the water, we noticed that one of the exhaust flaps on the stern had been sucked inward. Sounds like it may have sucked water in through the exhaust.

[maxpower220]

Fake a lake is cheap. Get one and an impeller. Do a test in your yard. Cracked head or block or gasket can still run perfect, for a while.

Run a test on the trailer, don't rev the engine on a fake a lake. Lot run a idle will net you water and or oil issues.

[chaneya]

I think I may be in the clear on this one.

Changed the oil this morning, I think I pulled out about 6 to 6.5 quarts (of buttermilk), which would be about a quart of water in the oil. Added some Seafoam engine treatment to the oil and fired it up on the ramp at the marina with the boat backed into the water (no garden hose access right now).

It immediately began drawing water as expected, engine ran smooth for two hours. I would've taken it out for a bit, but I don't want to do it alone yet. Temp stayed between 155 and 160 the entire two hours. No leaking water, other than the impeller housing, which needs a new gasket because it drips a bit.

Shut it off, pulled it back up to my parking space and checked the oil - perfect, no buttermilk. I'll probably get my wife to go out on a test run with me tonight or tomorrow night if the weather holds up and then change the oil again. Anything I should add to the oil this time? I have some Marvel Mystery Oil?