COPS, Speaker POPS, and Bad Sound SHOPS

[Jwredmon101]

Well as some of you have seen and responded to on the ZLD thread, I had a problem with speaker "slap" and distortion on Memorial day weekend. My uneducated self thought that it was a equipment issue of not having a ZLD. When I got my sub installed the week before Memorial day I told the guys to go through and make sure everything was tuned and set right for the holiday coming up. I was assured this would be takin care of. Got to the sound shop and the boat was inside the shop where I could hear it .. It sounded great but the issue is, inside the shop is a whole different ball game then out on open water.When the weekend came and the party started I was constantly having to turn up and down and up and down the bass cause of distortion and pops from song to song. It got very annoying but I made it through the weekend. Well here we are now. After talking to Brian at Exile I found out very quickly that it was not a "missing" equipment issue but a equipment setup problem. Now by no means I am a expert so that is why I am doing this write up. For the guys that are intimidated at tuning their own system(this is me)I am going to tell you what I did to get this thing to rock and get the cops called on me for disturbing the peace. First I will give you the run down on the gear.
2 XM9s powered by a Exile 800.4
6 6.5 Exile in boat speakers powered by a Exile 800.4
1 12 Memphis audio powered by a Prx 500.1
Stock sony head unit in a 2014 Moomba Mondo
First thing first, My head unit was all out of whack! -6 low..+2 mid ..-1 hi blah blah blah.This was the "tune" that I got from the audio shop. To start the tune I turned everything to ZERO. this starts you at square one where you dont have the EQ in the head unit messing with your sound coming out of your speakers. This includes your AUX input .. mine was +6 :confused:.
Second up was the volume. Now, i'm not going to go through all the scientific reasons why I set my volume to this but basically, you want to set your deck to 80% or below on max volume. When you crank your deck wide open it causes a massive amount of distortion. No matter how much you work on your amps you will NEVER get it out if your deck is wide open. My deck goes to 50 so I set mine to 35 just to be on the safe side. So now my deck levels are set to 0 and my volume is set to 35. In order to attack my system I needed to set my 3 zones(tower,cabin,sub) one by one. So next I unplugged the RCAs to the sub and the towers cause I wanted to start with the cabins.
So on the amps there was a switch that said LP(lowpass) HP(hi pass) and Flat(full range) now since these are only 6.5in. drivers they are not made to handle the bass that a sub is. Just like a sub is not made to project voice. The sound shop had put these on Flat so all the music including the bass meant for a sub was traveling through these speakers. THIS IS BAD. Cabins need to be set on HI PASS. Now to get into the tech side, preferably you want to turn your HP hertz setting on the amp to 110 hertz. This will allow only the frequency's that are suppose to pass through the 6.5s hence stopping the pops,cracks, and distortion. On the Exile and it went from 20 to 400 so about 20 clicks(est)clockwise did it for me. All I did was start really high probably about 35-40 clicks clockwise and started turning counter clockwise until I got the POP back. Then I took it back up 1 or 2 clicks and the pop went away. This immediately made a big difference in the sound quality and made a big impact on the clarity of the cabins. Now when gains(how much it amplifies the sound) come into play it is kinda a ball park on where you will have them set at. Mine on the cabins was somewhere between 10-11 o'clock and this produced a good level to satisfy my ears. Again to my knowledge this is a trial and error and by no means a dead set amount to have your gains on your amp set at. finally I began to understand why this was so important. Why spend thousands of dollars on good equipment and let a few settings keep you from your full potential.
Next was the Towers. I unplugged the cabin speakers and plugged back in the tower speakers. Again I did the same thing turning up the hertz then back down till I got distortion and POP .. Back up a click or 2 and BOOM.. SET.. Now these were a little different. Ideally you want to get these around 80 hertz. You can achieve this be cause you have a lot larger speaker on the towers which are designed to handle mid bass. Now a lot of people might not know this about the XM9s but if you unscrew the Exile logo on the back you will find a switch that has a NO and 1 Ohm setting on the speaker. Want to get all you can get out of the tower speakers set it to NO. Want to get a warmer sound with less brightness to the sound, set it to 1 ohm. I had no clue about this little hidden feature and it can make a big difference if your not trying to reach out to that wake boarder all the time.
Last but certainly not least the BASSSSSSSSSSSSSS. now by this time I had this sucker blasting for almost 45 mins to a hour trying to get this set up right. This was causing the biggest problem on Memorial Day weekend because the Sub was getting a Mechanical sound like it was almost jumping out of the box. Found out that's called over excursion. Now with the sub you do the exact opposite. Go to the amp and switch it to LOW PASS. No voice should be coming out of your sub at all. Subs are designed for the low end of the music range kinda like a tuba in the orchestra. Holla to my band nerds!!! I set the hertz on this bad boy to about 60 hertz or so i'm guessing its kinda about what music ya listen to and when you want this puppy to hit. Not to mention before I started the sub level on the deck was +10 .. WTF. So with this I started on the 20 hertz side and moved my way up until I heard what i think was voice then turned it back down a few clicks ...
This where my story ends my friends. At this point I was interrupted by what we country folks like to call the POPO. I was in a old factory parking lot and could not see a house for over a 1/4 away and some how got the cops called on me for disturbing the peace. haha... SUCCESS!!:):):)
But to sum it up I was skeptical to try this on my own But thanks to Brian couching me through the process I was able to get my gear straighten out and sounding great!!! Whether you love or hate EXILE the customer service is second to NONE. He was at a t ball game and still answered my calls 3 or 4 times. BIG THANKS TO BRIAN!!!
PS: heres the police .. it took 3 of them apparently LOL
20050

[kaneboats]

Finally, someone just explains this in good old fashioned plain English. Props to you man! You have solved the mystery of how to tune a system for all of us in one simple, easy to follow post. Here, here! Looking forward to seeing the cops in my nearby Target parking lot.

[BGeorge01]

Awesome write up, I may have to go through my system and try this, thanks!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[rdlangston13]

What were you playing to tune it? I hear Nickleback is good to tune a system too...

[Jwredmon101]

What were you playing to tune it? I hear Nickleback is good to tune a system too...
I listened to all kinds of different music .. so what I did was put it through about 4 different songs after I thought I had it set where I wanted. If I had no issues and the quality was great on all 4 songs then I would move along .. If I had a problem even on one song at any part .. I dialed it back just a tad and I knew I was set.. Nickleback is a good one to start with on a rock song because of how they recorded their albums but, if you listen to dub or club music you might find that your sub will be over pushed with these songs if you tuned it to rock only.

[philwsailz]

I listened to all kinds of different music .. so what I did was put it through about 4 different songs after I thought I had it set where I wanted. If I had no issues and the quality was great on all 4 songs then I would move along .. If I had a problem even on one song at any part .. I dialed it back just a tad and I knew I was set.. Nickleback is a good one to start with on a rock song because of how they recorded their albums but, if you listen to dub or club music you might find that your sub will be over pushed with these songs if you tuned it to rock only.

I think that the use of Nickleback comes from my recommendation, due to the fact that Nickleback does a heavy amplitude compression algorhythm on their recordings. Every sound is about as loud as it can be without clipping, right up to the digital media maximum. With Nickleback loud sounds are loud, and even quiet sounds are loud. There are no soft passages in a typical Nickleback recording so you know with a CD from them that you have a recording that is as loud as digital media will allow. There are no digital recordings out there with greater overall volume or density. This is done by running their recordings through a compressor which is set to take the loud sounds right up to the digital maximum volume, and at the same time bring the quiet sounds way up in volume. That is a very good way do describe AMPLITUDE COMPRESSION, as opposed to the digital compression used to create MP3 files that removes analog information to shrink file size. Lots of folks get that part confused.

There is a digital limit to maximum amplitude, (loudness) for .WAV files, .MP3 files, or other digital files as found on a CD or an MP3 device. In digital terms, one cannot exceed this max becuse there is not a series of 1's and 0's defined in the digital audio language that exceeds the limit. On a CD or MP3 you can only record to this digital maximum.


Now to Jwredmon101's point... If you have a recording that is recorded at absolutely the loudest level possible at all frequencies, ( Nickleback) and you use it to tune your audio system you can be CERTAIN that you will not find a recording at a later date that is recorded louder. It is digitally impossible. Let me explain:

We want to set our audio systems where when the system is at its loudest without clipping, EVERY COMPONENT is operating at its loudest without clipping. Audio pros call that UNITY gain. First we set the head unit to just below clipping, (often near that 75% range of the volume control). Then we move downstage and set the next item in the signal path to its very loudest, just below clipping. We move down the signal path in this manner until we get to the amp and we raise the gain control on the amp(s) to the point where they clip, and then turn them back down slightly. Going through this procedure ensures that the gains on the amp(s) are as low as possible. Every component then theoretically clips at the same time, hence UNITY gain. Back to the CD:

I use a Nickleback CD every time when I can because technically the CD can be considered the very first component of the audio chain. The recording/mastering engineer set its gain prior to mastering and printing the CD. I know with a Nickleback CD that the recording is set to unity gain; it is recorded at that point just below clipping where it will be reproduced as loud as possible. With the exception of some Lab-grade test CDs with tones and noise, you will not find any other material on the market as close to this theoretical max volume.

THEREFORE, (to close the loop) If after tuning with a Nickleback, (for the reasons and in the manner I describe) you find that another CD or another hunk of music is causing your subwoofers to pop, be overdriven, distort, etc. you can be fairly certain that you did not fully "ring out" the system and get the gains totally set right. That or you turned around and cranked bass boost or Loudness back up after your tuning! :)

In summary, it is not that Nickleback puts out hard driving rock music that makes their recordings worth using. It is the WAY they are recorded that makes them worth using. Even if you never listen to Nickleback, you will be hard-pressed to find another CD that so perfectly acts like a lab-grade max-amplitude test CD while still sounding like music...

I sure hope that clears things up a little bit about WHY I recommend Nickleback. It is ONLY to get that initial gain setting done. It is a tool only, not a musical preference... :D

Phil
Kicker

[Mikey]

Just to throw a wrench into the mix. Some of us actually LIKE Nickleback music. Just Saying....

[kaneboats]

Uh, 50 million albums sold. I like a lot of their stuff too.

[philwsailz]

I worded that awkwardly. :D

I'm not flaming on Nickleback fans... I own two of their CDs!

I simply recommend Nickkeback to fans and flamers alike for setting unity gains on your audio systems.

Phil
Kicker

[mcdye]

I simply recommend Nickkeback to fans and flamers alike for setting unity gains on your audio systems.

Phil
Kicker

Which songs do you use?

[David Analog]

I have a Nickleback CD specifically for tuning although I don't normally listen to it. The problem is that I don't listen to any music with that level of compression. So for me Nickleback is like using a 0 dB CD test tone to set my max gains. It will expose limitations at the earliest possible point. But for my music I would be leaving some dynamic range on the table. So IMO it is a great starting point but definitely not the final or only selection for tuning. Be sure to mix in some of what you listen to daily.

[philwsailz]

David-

I absolutely agree that it should not be the only or final selection for tuning. One has so many other things to set, crossovers, phase, etc. You CAN'T hear those subtleties if you have Nickleback on.

I question though your comment that you would be leaving dynamic range on the table. If you have gain-staged every single item in the signal chain so that they all exactly start to clip at the same time, you have not given up dynamic range anywhere, but have in fact squeezed every last drop of dynamic range out of the system.

Wait... I get it. You are saying that you listen to music that is not recorded close to 0dB. It is on average recorded much quieter, probably 6 to 18 dB quieter on average. I am in the same boat. :D Most of us are a decent amount of the time. Follow me, we agree, and I know you know that... just playing along and now it is time to elaborate.

Guys, know we have not given up dynamic range, the dynamic range still fully exists! It is just that if we only use Nickleback, or a 0dB calibration, the music will be often unduly quiet when the stereo is playing other music at normal operating levels. As I attempted to point out in my comments on the first page, the typical driving Nickleback track approaches the 0dB test as David points out. It is GOOD at helping you find the onset of clipping distortion and allows you to do so for a significant portion of the song, since it is so heavily compressed in the recording stage. IF you gain stage your whole system with a Nickleback track, you should find that without changing radio tone controls that you will never clip your stereo again. It will not be as loud on other music though...

So What is a guy to do? Probably what we all do anyway. Leave the amp gains a little bit higher than the Nickleback CD suggests... :D It is a FIRST part of tuning, in order to set your signal chain and each of its components to its max gain before clipping. Just remember after you bring the amp gains up, the Nickleback CD will be the one that clips your system the worst when its cranked way up.........


I know this discussion is a tough one to follow for a lot of the readers, and in an attempt to present the material in as simple as possible a manner, some obvious points inadvertantly get swept under the table. It all comes down to risk avoidance and probability.

Say if one of you were tuning a stereo for a 16-year-old first time car owner first time stereo owner, you will probably assume he is going to turn the treble all the way up, the bass all the way up, and switch on Loudness and Bass Boost if available... As a result, if you don't want to have to service the stereo as the kid tears it up, you probably will end up setting the amp gains a little lower and the high-pass crowsovers a little higher... You will take a conservative approach to settingt the stereo up in an attempt to provide the customer a rock-solid system that won't break under abuse, since he probably cannot tell by ear when he is clipping some part of the audio signal somewhere.

Conversely if David or I, or Tim, or some of the other stereo experts on here were tuning our own systems for our own car or boat, I guarantee that we will set some things differently for our own tastes, as we know our own tastes, know our own listening preferences, and absolutely know how to listen for the signs of bad stereo behavior. We also understand fully that if we break a part of the stereo by over-driving it, it really is OUR fault, not the equipment's fault.... :cool: We probably have some music deemed VERY WEIRD by many of you from artists you have never heard of..... Or it is music we recorded from a live performance ourselves...


As I re-read through what I just wrote, (looking for mis-spelled words) I realize the last two paragraphs are probably the two extreme examples of stereo ownership. the rest of the world, (most of you guys) live somewhere in-between these two extremes.

As has been done in the past, and as it will be done again, there can be books written in these forums attempting to get every nuance of system tuning nailed down, purely scientifically in a perfect cookie-cutter textbook fashion. And every one of these examples will miss something, somewhere, for some other system. There is a standard approach, but there is no set of standard settings.

As I mentioned in a previous post, Nickleback is good for INITIAL gain settings, and it is a good tool to get unity gain established.

If you use Nickleback for final tuning, you can be reasonably sure that no other recording is going to clip an audio system without heavy tone control adjustment. That fact is what I attempted to write in my reply to Jwredmon101's post. As David pointed out though, and I wrote a book elaborating on, that is not where you ultimately shold stop.

Clearer or muddier?

You be the Judge... :)

Phil
Kicker

[Jwredmon101]

So in easier terms.. If I tune my system to Nickelback.. I wont clip on any song .. but if I have songs that are recorded alot lower .. I could be missing potential power, putting me far behind where clipping would be because the track was not recorded at 0 db. Correct?

[David Analog]

Phil,
You read my statements correctly. I always start out by finding out what my absolute limits are. Even finding clipping with a scope and test tone I find that I am leaving some music contrast unrealized if using a 0 dB tone. So my final tune is always by ear with what I prefer for daily listening. Of course, that has to be a little different for the 16 year old driving the family boat.
I will listen to the best of any music category. Jazz, rock, country, etc. etc. But I mostly listen to Classic Rock and the Rock outgrowth up to the present. At the beginning of Rock, the recordings were terrible, then many got really good, and then the recordings have moved to appeasing compressed mediums. For that reason a pro will have a handful of selections that he uses for contrast. Some of those selections will be specifically for exposing the limits. Sometimes the amplifiers are more powerful than the speakers can withstand. Some of those selections are used because they are favorites and he knows the program material so well. Some of those selections are never played personally. And I have a completely different selection for car and boat. In a car I often have control over amplitude, slope, and crossover frequency between the midbass and tweeters so certain music becomes critical in tuning. In a boat, once you get past the defining of the limits, you typically only have control over level matching zones and biamping a sub and sats.

[philwsailz]

So in easier terms.. If I tune my system to Nickelback.. I wont clip on any song .. but if I have songs that are recorded alot lower .. I could be missing potential power, putting me far behind where clipping would be because the track was not recorded at 0 db. Correct?


Dang!

You took my long-winded textbook and basically condensed it to two sentences.

You are absolutely correct.

[Jwredmon101]

Dang!

You took my long-winded textbook and basically condensed it to two sentences.

You are absolutely correct.
If we ever discover other life forms..I like to think I would make a good translator! :)

[btye1]

The "sound shop" you took your boat to should be downright embarrassed with the work they performed. I would guess that they have tuned multiple boats the same as yours is. Hopefully you didn't spend too much money on that hot mess.