Trouble starting engine

[Rakkasan]

Ok guys maybe y'all can help me out.

I pulled the boat out today so I could start getting it ready for the warmer weather, wanted to start practicing my launching, loading, and driving the new boat. When I winterized the boat prior to the cold weather it started but had a little trouble getting going.
Today I pulled it out, checked the fluids, and hooked up the fake a lake. After about and hour of trying to get it started I was getting frustrated. Even starter fluid didn't work. Dumped about an 1/8 cup of gas down the throttle body and she fired right up.
Ran it for about ten minutes to get the temp up so the fuel pump works fine. I turn it off let it sit for ten minutes and tried to start again to no avail. Put more gas in the TB and started up again.

Can some one tell me what's up.
It has spark.
It has fuel pressure.
Just won't start with out some assistance.

( filled the tank for winterizing with 91octane w/ethanol and marine Stabil)

[kaneboats]

Might want to start with what boat, what year and what motor.

[Rakkasan]

Sorry 08 LSV 325 assault

[mmandley]

Hate to say it but you are going to need the dealer to look it over.

Several things happen when you start the engine.

1 You turn the key on and the fuel pump should prime and pressurize the fuel rail. This can eb checked with a fuel pressure gauge.

2 when you crank the engine the ECM is looking for a signal from the crank position sensor telling it the engine is spinning. It waits for that signal to be over X RPM I think its 400. That tell the ECM the engine fired, and then turns the Fuel pump on and allows it to run. <this is where i think your issue is>

Since you can start it with raw Fuel it says to me the pump and pressure are good when running.

If it was my boat and your handy with tools, I would be looking at replacing the fuel filter and fuel pump.

I think the fuel pump is able to feed the engine enough fuel pressure to run but not enough to charge the rail when its time to start. by you dumping raw fuel into the Engine to start it, you are bypassing the Start conditions.

I had the same problem on my Vette last summer, fuel pump worked, but I had a crank no start. If i squirted fuel in the Intake it would start right up.
Ended up being my fuel pump worked but it didn't supply enough pressure to make the check point in the ECM to fire the injectors at start.

[Rakkasan]

Thanks for the info.

I know the rail is getting charged because I can hear the pump priming the rail and when I check the Schrader Valve on the rail it releases pressurized fuel.
I'm planing on replacing the fuel filter but figured since it runs that wouldn't have been the problem in the starting.

I'm more familiar with carbed engines so I pulled one of the plugs after trying awhile and the plug was clean and dry.

It started right up when we took it out for a test drive prior to buying it so I don't see how much could have changed in it just sitting for a couple months.

[mmandley]

I hear ya man, like i said my Vette did the same thing, it had pressure at the rail but 10PSI will squirt but not fire the engine. Then once its running that 10 will work at idle but since your not on the water you cant test unload conditions.

I think a fuel pump and filter is less then a hundo, plus they are outside the tank so its easy to get to. Still even if its not the issue, not a bad part replacement for peace of mind later.

[zabooda]

Most of the time it is the gas people leave in their boat.

[Rakkasan]

Yeah I think your right just hate to admit I'm wrong. How hard is it to get to the fuel pump. I'm assuming it's under the part of the floor that's screwed down.

[Rakkasan]

One more thing. Are you supposed to pump the throttle back n forth before putting it in neutral and starting or is that just for carbed engines

[patrick232]

I would change the fuel filter and try starting again

[mmandley]

One more thing. Are you supposed to pump the throttle back n forth before putting it in neutral and starting or is that just for carbed engines

No you don't need to pump it. Just turn the key and it should start.

Fuel filter will be just before the fuel pump, and the fuel pump is actually right next to the engine. both can be reached by folding down the side panel in the V drive, or over head through the normal center engine door.

[Rakkasan]

I know it's a bad pic but is this the fuel filter.

[parrothd]

Since it's been in storage try boosting the battery, maybe there's not enough juice to crank and run that darn computer.. Also is it in neutral, does it have one of the crappy lanyards?



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[Rakkasan]

I've had a battery tender hooked up to it and it seems to be cranking just as fast as before. Meters reading just over 12volts but maybe I'll unhook the battery and clean the terminals too.

It does have the crappy lanyard and is in neutral. The boat runs just won't start on its own. I'd hate to be on the lake and have to pour gas down its throat every time I want to move.

[Birdman]

Sounds like the pump if you treated you fuel I had the same thing with a quad where it would run but would only start by turning it over till the starter just about burnt out of it does it pop and back fire when you give it a little rpm?


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[Rakkasan]

Sounds like the pump if you treated you fuel I had the same thing with a quad where it would run but would only start by turning it over till the starter just about burnt out of it does it pop and back fire when you give it a little rpm?


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That's another thing that's confusing. I know it's not under any load just sitting in the driveway with a water hose hooked up but when I hit the throttle it just purrs right along like nothing's wrong. Just a smooth as can be.

[Rakkasan]

Ok guys I just changed to fuel filter and it sounded like it wanted to start a couple times but just wouldn't kick over. Fuel down the TB again it started and ran fine. Is there a sensor some where the tells the fuel pump to kick back on after a certain RPM is hit?

[mmandley]

Ok guys I just changed to fuel filter and it sounded like it wanted to start a couple times but just wouldn't kick over. Fuel down the TB again it started and ran fine. Is there a sensor some where the tells the fuel pump to kick back on after a certain RPM is hit?

Refer back to Post#4

Crank Position Sensor tells the ECM the engine is running and it turns the pump back on.

In short, Turn key on pressurize fuel rail.
Engine fires up
Engine rotating tells the ECM to run Fuel pump full time.

But like I said before you spend all the money to have a dealer look at it, take a few minutes and a few dollars and replace that old fuel pump.

Then at the very least if it doesn't start you know you have a serious issue and the dealer isn't going to hit you for 150 for a fuel pump.

First 3 things I always do when I have a fuel related issue is,
Add an Octane booster to the fuel in case I have old fuel. Sounds like you treated it with Stabile and its good fuel
Change my Fuel filter
Change my Fuel Pump.
Then I worry about the rest.

[Rakkasan]

Thanks for the help. After I changed the fuel filter and ran it for a little bit I shut it off and let it sit then restarted. After I did this a couple time now it starts up on the first key turn.

BUT...

Now the check engine light stays on when it's running.
The dealer is a couple hours away and this is starting to well you know

[mmandley]

Thanks for the help. After I changed the fuel filter and ran it for a little bit I shut it off and let it sit then restarted. After I did this a couple time now it starts up on the first key turn.

BUT...

Now the check engine light stays on when it's running.
The dealer is a couple hours away and this is starting to well you know

Are you referring to the check engine light by the Lanyard? That is normal when at idle, it will shut off when you put it in gear and get over a couple miles per hour.

Also don't panic about the check engine light just yet.

In my 13 Mojo I had a check engine light the first tank of fuel, it was a few months old and at the end of the season I had a tank that was a few weeks old and would get random check engine lights when the Lake was below 60 and the engine was cold. The dealer hasn't been able to reproduce it.

Take the boat out on the lake and run her, see how she does.

[Rakkasan]

Ok, yeah it's the check engine light by the ignition and blower switch. Did the dealer ever determine why yours came on and also do you think I'm hurting anything by running mine on a fake a lake.

The water is a good 45min to a hour away and I have different off days as the wife and don't wont to head out by myself just for it to die on me.

[mmandley]

It could be the fake a lake, it could be the fuel, its hard to tell but since your original problem was a crank no start, but it would RUN then I wouldn't be so worried about that CEL. It could be do to you by passing the ignition start up sequence when you sprayed fuel down the intake to make it run.

I would be happy I got it to crank and start, and run for now.

Worry about that CEL after you have time to put it in the water.

You could always disconnect the battery to reset the ECM, then restart it and see if that CEL comes on again. I would still be leaning towards it doesn't like your old fuel.

On mine, no the dealer never figured out the issue. I think its a fuel issue, old fuel or the boat not being up to temp because my lake is cold and it was only on when we first start surfing. After we do a pull or two the boat is up to operating temp and the light is gone. Only time it ever stayed on all the time was the very first run in 13 when it had old fuel. As soon as I put new fuel in it the light was gone.

[Rakkasan]

Thanks you've been a big help.
I also disconnected the battery's when I changed the fuel filter so that might have reset the ECM and with a combo of things worked its self out. But I'm with you leaning towards the fuel. The gas I dumped out of the old filter and the lines that ran to it we're pretty cloudy.

[kaneboats]

Shoot, you guys got me worried. I laid up back in September. Usually run all the way into late October and get out in Feb. so I don't worry about fuel at all. Just top off with fresh and I'm good to go. This year it's gonna be mid March before I get out. I tried to siphon fuel out through the fill spout but couldn't get into the tank. How would you empty the tank? I'd rather run the fuel through the lawnmower, dirtbikes, etc. and put fresh fuel in at this point.

[zabooda]

I leave a gallon of treated non-ethanol gas in the tank over the winter and then pump it all out and then pump fresh fuel through the lines and gas filter. Bad gas messes up too many things. You will know why it is good to get rid of the gas when you look at how nasty it looks.

I run a jumper to the fuel pump and drain it into a gas can and I have a carburetor. I'm not sure about FI.

I keep this gas away from my small engine stuff and dump it into the vehicles where it is mixed with the existing gas and diluted. Dirt bikes are more susceptable to varnishing so I keep it away from old gas.

[Rakkasan]

After jumping all around my boat the last couple days I've learned a couple things. If you can't get a hose down the filler cap just follow that line down untill it reaches the tank. Then disconnect the line there and put the hose directly into the tank some filler cap might have an anti siphon in them.

[mmandley]

Shoot, you guys got me worried. I laid up back in September. Usually run all the way into late October and get out in Feb. so I don't worry about fuel at all. Just top off with fresh and I'm good to go. This year it's gonna be mid March before I get out. I tried to siphon fuel out through the fill spout but couldn't get into the tank. How would you empty the tank? I'd rather run the fuel through the lawnmower, dirtbikes, etc. and put fresh fuel in at this point.

Go but a bottle of Stabil green stuff, its for Ethanol fuel.
Buy a Bottle of Octane Booster.

Dump those in and you will be fine. Go run some fuel out and full with Supreme. Then you will be fine.

I do this each spring since my fuel is normally 6+ months old when we first hit the lake.

[Rakkasan]

Just wanted to give some updates. Was out on the lake yesterday for about 5 hours. Boat started but still with some issues.
It would start on its own but had to crank it more than a few times and once the engine caught I'd have to throw the throttle froward to keep it running. Then like I said we were there all day and it ran like a champ.
I'm leaning toward the earlier suggestion about replacing the fuel pump and was wondering if someone could give me a part number or a good place to pick one up.

Thanks

[Rakkasan]

I'm still confused with this issue.
Was out the last couple weekends on the water but this is getting old. Before we head to the lake I hook the boat up to the hose to make sure she'll start and does but takes about ten turns of the key to get it running. Then get to the lake, drop it in the water, and it starts after a couple turns.
After running for a while I think we're good to go and I'll shut it down to jump in the water for a while and go to start it back up and takes forever. Now we only turn it off when we'll be somewhere for a while and are not worried about being in someone's way and trying to get it started.
Hell even at the boat launch I never consider turning it off after pulling it off the trailer or getting ready to load it up at the end of the day. I'll let that thing run out of gas before I consider sitting at the dock in front of everybody and having a non-starting boat again.

[motosno963]

id also say fuel..mine does the early summer purge..sometimes ill get her to start and and under load she will purge..there should be a part number on the pump. if not there are a few online shops that will have the pump

[Rakkasan]

Since I first got it out I've been trying to burn out the old gas. Have already put 20hrs on the boat this season and refilled the tank with ethanol free 90 octane along with a couple bottles of seafoam. Went though about half a tank with this fuel and the problem still haven't worked its self out.

Which fuel pump should I be looking at? The Low pressure or High?

[Stazi]

Fuel Injected uses high pressure. Only carb uses low pressure.

[Rakkasan]

Ok. I was on the phone with the dealer yesterday trying to solve the problem and they said there are two fuel pumps. One to prime the system for starting and one for running once started.

I wanted to take the boat to them(Atlanta Marine) but they said their slammed rebuilding engines following the winter. It's a couple hours away and they said they might not get to it till after Memorial Day. Well that's not going to work as I already have a house rented for that weekend.

They have been very helpful though. They call SC yesterday and were working till 8pm(that's when they called back). Trying to diagnosis my problem through 2 techs but still couldn't naid down the problem over the phone.

[Rakkasan]

I hear ya man, like i said my Vette did the same thing, it had pressure at the rail but 10PSI will squirt but not fire the engine. Then once its running that 10 will work at idle but since your not on the water you cant test unload conditions.

I think a fuel pump and filter is less then a hundo, plus they are outside the tank so its easy to get to. Still even if its not the issue, not a bad part replacement for peace of mind later.

Still trying to find a part number for a replacement fuel pump if anyone has it and/or a good place to pick one up.
Thanks

[LSM]

I have an 06 LSV with 330 hours in it. This boat has been perfect since day one. After 8 hours on the lake Saturday, I was headed to the marina when the engine went to acting stupid. It scared me it was running so rough I shut it down. Once I shut it down, I checked it over good then tried to restart it. It will spin over fine it just won't start up. Today, I pulled the fuel filter, pulled the flame arrestor, bled the fuel rail, re-primed the fuel pump, but no luck. She'll spin over but no fire. I'm thinking I may have the same or similar problem. Let me know what you come up with. The guys at Discount Inboard Marine can tell you what fuel pump you need. Good folks... Google them.....

[REDFIVE48]

I have an 06 LSV with 330 hours in it. This boat has been perfect since day one. After 8 hours on the lake Saturday, I was headed to the marina when the engine went to acting stupid. It scared me it was running so rough I shut it down. Once I shut it down, I checked it over good then tried to restart it. It will spin over fine it just won't start up. Today, I pulled the fuel filter, pulled the flame arrestor, bled the fuel rail, re-primed the fuel pump, but no luck. She'll spin over but no fire. I'm thinking I may have the same or similar problem. Let me know what you come up with. The guys at Discount Inboard Marine can tell you what fuel pump you need. Good folks... Google them.....

Mine did this exact thing last year. Turned out to be my MAP sensor, next time it happens pull that off the intake manifold and see if it starts up. I carry a spare now and rotate them if it happens, I've noticed it's temporary so 'bad' one will work again.

[Rakkasan]

Could you tell m where the MAP sensor is located and/or what it looks like.

[REDFIVE48]

looking at you motor from the passenger cabin, it is on the intake manifold directly in front of you and before the spark arrestor. It has a plug with wire loom plugged into it and is held in by 2 screws. Unscrew the 2 screws, pull the sensor straight up and see if it will start. It wont run well without it in place, but mine would at least start when it was out and wouldn't start when it was in.

[Rakkasan]

That's easy enough to find and try out. Did you leave the wires pluged in when you tried to start or disconnect it completely.

[REDFIVE48]

left the wires hooked to the sensor, good luck!

[LSM]

No luck for me. I pulled out the MAP sensor while leaving it plugged up. No fire. Then I tried unplugging all together. No luck there either. I tried spraying gas into the throttle body. I still couldn't get fire. I also removed the coil wire going to the electronic distributer. I had a couple of guys helping and we never could see a spark. I tried arching the coil wire to ground while cranking but no spark. I tried using a volt meter measuring DC voltage at the coil wire while starting. I saw 12V with KEY on then it dropped to 11.4 while cranking. I'm not sure if the coil is bad or the computer is not allowing fire due to a bad sensor some where. Does any one know what the red push button is on the side of the mounting plate that has all the EMISSIONS control garbage on it? I see and feel a red push button down there. I'll look to see if it is in the owners manual. I need to find a better way to trouble shoot the coil I guess. Its almost as if the kill switch is activated but its not.

[Rakkasan]

No luck for me. I pulled out the MAP sensor while leaving it plugged up. No fire. Then I tried unplugging all together. No luck there either. I tried spraying gas into the throttle body. I still couldn't get fire. I also removed the coil wire going to the electronic distributer. I had a couple of guys helping and we never could see a spark. I tried arching the coil wire to ground while cranking but no spark. I tried using a volt meter measuring DC voltage at the coil wire while starting. I saw 12V with KEY on then it dropped to 11.4 while cranking. I'm not sure if the coil is bad or the computer is not allowing fire due to a bad sensor some where. Does any one know what the red push button is on the side of the mounting plate that has all the EMISSIONS control garbage on it? I see and feel a red push button down there. I'll look to see if it is in the owners manual. I need to find a better way to trouble shoot the coil I guess. Its almost as if the kill switch is activated but its not.

I don't remember where I read it(somewhere on this forum) that the red button is a reset for the engine. Kind of like a separate breaker for just the engine electronics as opposed to the breaker for the whole boat. Could be wrong but pretty sure if it's out then something's wrong as it should be pushed in.

[LSM]

My red button is out about 1/4"... It will press in about a 1/16" of an inch... Thats it.

[23scuba]

LSM my red button is the same way! But mine will eventually start you just have to try it until it finally hits. We have checked and if I keep trying to start with the coil wire off and a buddy checking for fire it will fire intermittently so that would explain why it starts sometimes. Mine would also run rough like it was missing sometimes too but I think it was because of weak fire at the distributor.


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[23scuba]

I even went to a junk yard and pulled the coil from a 99 silverado that was running. That didn't work either! FYI 99 silverado had the same mounting plate with ignition module just like ours! Just in case you or a buddy has one I'm thinking like 99-04 maybe later is the same.


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[REDFIVE48]

My red button is out about 1/4"... It will press in about a 1/16" of an inch... Thats it.
That little red button left me stranded on the lake one day. Shorted out my electrical system with an air inflation pump plugged into my 12V outlet, but the pump had a crossed wire. Had no idea that there was a breaker in the engine compartment, so after I got towed in I was messing around in there and saw that and pushed it, boat started after that. With that tripped, it wont engage the starter motor at all, was like the whole ignition system was dead.

[23scuba]

Ok just left the dealer... Hooked up to the computer I was getting map sensor fault but the technician said he has seen a bunch of ignition switches go bad in these. So we looked at voltage on his computer and sure enough it had 12volts until you started to turn the engine over and it fell to 0. Sure enough we plugged a new switch in and it starts right up. The switch was like $30 or so.


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[Rakkasan]

Is it the actual switch where the key goes in?

[23scuba]

Yes it is..


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[Rakkasan]

You guys are awesome. After messing with starting this boat for over 6 months the simple fix... The Switch.

I jumped the wires through the Deutsch plug plugged in to the back of the ignition switch and she fired right up every time.
Off to the lake we go will just have to wait until we get back to order the new switch. Wondering if I should get the factory switch through the dealer or scrap the Deutsch plug and get a generic switch from the parts store.

[ninedriver]

Man, I'm glad to hear it turned out to be the ignition switch. Keep us posted if that does in fact cure your problems. Having an 08 LSV myself, I'm wondering if it's just a matter of time for me....

Also, Rakkasan, exactly what wires did you jump? (if you're able to, a pic would be helpful) And after jumping, did you still turn the key to start? I'd like to be prepared if this ever happens to me on the lake. Thanks.

[Rakkasan]

Man, I'm glad to hear it turned out to be the ignition switch. Keep us posted if that does in fact cure your problems. Having an 08 LSV myself, I'm wondering if it's just a matter of time for me....

Also, Rakkasan, exactly what wires did you jump? (if you're able to, a pic would be helpful) And after jumping, did you still turn the key to start? I'd like to be prepared if this ever happens to me on the lake. Thanks.

I got this from another thread.

"red = power
purple = ignition/fuel pump
yellow w/red stripe = starter

So hold the red and purple wires together and you will hear the normal start up beeps, then touch the yellow wire to the group to turn the starter over."

It's a little different on ours because the ignition switch is connected by a Deutsche plug versus separate wires. I just unplugged it and jump the wires with some spare wire I had in the same order as above.

[Rakkasan]

This completely bypasses the switch and you don't have to turn the key if jumping the wires as the switch is no longer connected.

[ninedriver]

Awesome. Thanks a lot!

[23scuba]

Glad you got it going!

[Rakkasan]

Got the new switch in the mail and had it installed in about a minute. It's a lot tighter than the old one and could really tell the difference. Turned the key and it fired up in an instant. It cost a little more than it should I think about $46 but I didn't want the cut the plug and rewire it so....

Also got a new tach because the old one had an error code that the dealer said couldn't be cleared and would need to be replaced. The tach worked fine but because of the code I would have to keep track of my hours by hand. Just for piece of mind we got a new one think the wife said about $180 for the tach but still waiting on the invoice.
If anyone needs a tach that works but has an Error 1 where the digital hrs meters is let me know.

[kaneboats]

I might have waited a couple of years to put the new one in. ;)

[Rakkasan]

I might have waited a couple of years to put the new one in. ;)

I would have but every time I saw that error message it messed with my peace of mind.

[klemmy]

Where did you get your switch from? I cannot find anywhere online that sells these switches. I had a moomba part # 109407 but I cannot locate that either.

[Rakkasan]

Where did you get your switch from? I cannot find anywhere online that sells these switches. I had a moomba part # 109407 but I cannot locate that either.

I couldn't find it online either finally ended up calling Atlanta Marine and had it within the week.

[wolfeman131]

Cyndi @ Atlanta Marine will take care of you! Let her know you're from the forum and she will try to get it shipped out quickly.

[VegasJay]

My 2007 LSV has been doing something similar to the issues in this thread. Basically I drive the boat for a little bit and then anchor. We will sit for a couple hours or so. Once I try to start back up I have all kinds of problems starting. It basically fires up at first but then just dies(even when I throttle it). I wait a sec and try again. It may barely fire or just turn over and over. I try to give it throttle to no avail. I can hear the fuel pump spool up each time but it just doesn't start. So, after waiting a little and trying a few more times it will eventually fire, usually with the throttle down a little. When it does fire up it even back fires a little sometimes. But it roars with no issues once if finally fires. After reading this thread, I was thinking maybe to start with the MAP sensor and replace it, but I would love any ideas the experts may have.

Thanks
Jeff

[Poison]

VegasJay, that sounds like a textbook vapor lock. Pour some water on the fuel pump next time it does that and it should start right up.

[VegasJay]

I am by no means a engine expert, but would have never thought about that. I will give that a try next time. Just regular lake water right on the fuel pump eh?

Thanks

[VegasJay]

Just did a little searching on vapor lock on the forum and learned a little about it. Glad I checked here, cause would never have thought about that, hopefully that will fix the issue when it arises again. This is my first summer with the LSV and it has been non stop learning. Fixed a ballast valve issue this weekend thanks to this forum. Really glad this forum exists.

Thanks

[Poison]

If that is indeed your problem, it can usually be fixed by using gas that is ethanol free.

Happens on my boat when we run it really hard with a lot of ballast and then stop for an hour in the heat of the summer. Here in Louisiana we get water temps in the mid 90s sometimes.

They also sell a kit that has a new fuel pump, but a quick cup of water always condenses it and gets me going so I never bothered.