Slalom Tips, Tuning and Tech

[SupraLaunch21V]

Slalom Freaks! I hope you don't mind me jumping into this forum. On the SC Supra site there is only wakeboarding / skating info and I tried to get a few of us on the Supra forum to talk slalom ski stuff but there just wasn't enough interest.

As all of us are constantly striving to improve, I was hoping to have input on various topics such as tuning settings, binding set up, and overall body position tips.

__________________________________________________ __________________

I've been fortunate to have some great coaching here in NC, but there are just some things ( bad habits ) that are hard to break and wondered if others had some creative ideas on how they corrected them.

During each coaching session I keep hearing that I'm leaning too far back on the ski, especially during the initiation of a turn ( which I think just puts on the brake and creates too much slack in the rope ). The problem is where others seems to drop the hip and 'fall' into a turn position rotating the ski on its edge.
Since I was little I was used to carving a turn out with my back heel and that's how I turned but its quickly becoming a mental block on how to correct. Anyone else have this occur and how did you correct it. I've also tried moving my bindings forward as far as they can go.

Thanks!
JY
Apex, NC

[kaneboats]

Welcome aboard! Lots of slalom help here. Fun too.

[maxpower220]

It might help to know what speed, line length, and ski you are on.

However, the basic position is stacked with equal balance on both feet. To start, I would ensure that your bindings are set up correctly with the recommended position from the manufacturer. You should be able to find that on the net. That also includes your fin position and wing angle (if you have one).

After the second wake crossing, you will begin the edge change and move forward on the ski, that will help slow you down. Check Ball of Spray and youtube videos for couterrotation help.

In the end, it takes practice to get proper form. You also need someone watching or videoing to know what you are doing, what you are doing wrong, and if you are fixing any of it.

[Mikey]

I would definetely go with the video idea if its at all possible. People can talk and preach this and that ideas but for some a visual explanation will do wonders. I'm like that in that i had and still have many issues,but after seeing some simple footage and then having something explained to me it was an instant wakeup call.

There are many things ,that may or may not be right,sometimes its just a matter of having it explained the right way. Thats one of the differences between a good teacher and a great teacher, and now i'm not just talking Waterskiing.

I had some instruction and after a quick review it was a simple problem to fix. Then on to the other 99 issues..haha

If you can try it it may help. i also agree that skis should be left alone UNLESS you really know what you are doing, then everything is very slight adjustments, Thats what the pros do yet many ski barebone stock skis as well. Nate Smith is a prime example. Uses a stock ski basically right out of the box...Yet it works for him. HMMMM???

[BensonWdby]

Move the bindings back to neutral. I have actually head that moving them one hole back may actually help. Does not make a lot of sense but might be interesting. I just spent a week with a coach (fourth year now) and we spent lots of time on just that problem. There are lots of things that you can try. 1. Do not turn with a stiff front leg. 2. Keep the weight on the balls of your feet. 3. Shift your weight forward by moving your hips forward vs. crouching and using your shoulders to 'get over the front'. 4. Keep your head up - don't start the turn with your head and shoulders. 5. Don't release your outside hand too soon. 5. Reach forward and in and up a bit so your ski can turn by itself under the rope. 6. Don't rush your turn - avoid turning into slack (definition of slack varies) - let the ski finish 7. Increase your knee bend as you approach the first wake.
Video is a good idea.
Try Andy Mapple's second Ski Paradise video. It has good instruction based on analyzing amatures at slower speeds and longer ropes instead of how to ski 39 off.
The biggest mistake I make is turning to frequently - making 8-9 turns in the length of a normal slalom course.

Spend as much time as you can with a coach.
Relax and have fun.

[NCSUmoomba]

John,

These guys are all better skiers than me, so I trust their advice. I have found that I have to consciously focus on shifting more weight on my front foot. It is working okay on my onside turns, but the offside are still sketchy.

[BensonWdby]

Completely agree with consious effort on front foot. What I have found is that if you just "think' you are doing something you probably are not doing enough. If you try to exaggerate the movement - it is probably closer to what you really want - then you can feel it. I have recently found that I need to make myself feel like I am forcing my front foot into the water in order to approximate what I think I should be doing. Still not all that pleased with the results - but better than a couple weeks ago.

The biggest problem with slalom is that a bad wake crossing is probably the result of a bad turn, which is probably the result of bad body position in the preturn - which is proably the result of a bad wake crossing - or maybe releasing too early - or changing your edge too early (kind of go together) - or standing up at the wake, which is proably the result of ....

It seems to be all about rythym - which starts with a good pull out and a good turn into the gate - which , btw, you should not be worrying about initially (making the gate)

[maxpower220]

It would also be helpful to know if you are running the course or just free skiing.

[BensonWdby]

Something that might help. My coach has us do an open water drill that pretty much takes the turn out of the equation. If you are currently skiing one-handed and are trying to cross-and-turn as quickly as you can - this is going to feel very strange. The goal is to try to help you develop angle - a good lean away from the boat between the whitewaters - and concious practice of weight on front and progressive knee bend.
The drill is simple.
Start on the left outer edge of whitewater.
Bend your front knee - but don't squat.
Start your pullout with your hip - NOT your head and shoulders. Starting a move with my head is a huge problem.
The pull out needs to be quick so you are not hangin on that outside edge all the way to the apex.
You want to generate your outbound momentumm quickly - and then coast.
Once you get wide enough to break free of the boat get your weight up on the ball of the front foot and DON'T turn - just glide.
When the rope re-tensions - make your turn to the "gate" - you can actually do this two handed - one-handed in this drill does not make much sense.
DO NOT start your turn with your head and shoulders - Keep your head up and look at the back of the boat, not across the wake.
Do Start your turn with your knees and your hips moving them in the direction you want to go - forward and inward.
Gradually increase your knee bend (keeping hips forward/up) throught the wake.
When you get to where you think you want to start your turn - don't - just get more vertical - make sure your weight is on the balls of your feet with more on the front, knees bent.
Repeat the 'gate approach' from the right.

[BensonWdby]

About the eyes/head/shoulders

For me one of the things that makes a huge difference is where I am looking.
In the pre-turn I typically like to be looking straight ahead
As I start the turn will try to look at the back of the boat - more in the boat than the transom.
I try to aviod looking at the ball - no always easy.
Don't look at your ski or the wakes - that will move your shoulders into the wrong position.

Don't start your turn with your head/shoulders. This actually will drive your hip in the opposite direction you want and will definitely transfer weight to the back of the ski- even if you are not actually leaning back over the ski.

[iwaterskihard]

What speed and line length are you skiing at? Course or Open Water?

Body positioning is the key to a good side to side counter rotation and being able to hold that position through the wakes. Listen to the information above - if you want GOOD slalom advice get on and become a member of Ball Of Spray!

ballofspray.com

It can be very intimidationg at first but there is a TON of help out there as well as a whole bunch of guys willing to help you!

Back to positioning - Benson is right good positioning is key even on the pullout for your gate entry or even your first cut in open water. That positioning helps you enter your first cut. Your body NEEDS to be stacked! Sholders level, over your hips, and square to the boat. knees bent. If you're properly stacked teh weight issue on your feet relly becomes a non issue as proper positioning and alignment creates balance.

Hold that stacked position through thesecond wake as you prepare to stand up, change edges, and start your next cut. Keep the same positioning, concentrate on keeing shoulders quiet. inside hip forward (which doesn't allow you to bend forward), and allow the ski to do the turning for you.

Once ski has completed turn grab handle, keep your elbows in, and get stacked for pull from boat and repeat!!!!!!

Upper body positioning and practicing stacked position can be down right on dry land with a water ski rope and a fence post or tree. Don't underestimate what you can see on dry land in your positioning!

Also vidoe of yourself will be a HUGE TEACHING aid too. If you can see it - you can fix it!

Good luck man! Work hard and if you cna seek out a good ski coach - DO IT!!!! :)

[BensonWdby]

Wish I coudl take my own advice.

Good weekend in the course - but still squatting at 22 off. Drives me crazy. Boy am I tired.

[SupraLaunch21V]

All,
I'm enthusiastic and overwhelmed by the great info shared here. Thanks to all that are contributing and helping me make positive changes each time I go to practice.

A few things, as some are asking great questions about my skiing and preferences. I'll try to answer to the best of my ability.
Mostly I'm free skiing. We don't have a course set up on a public lake yet, but I'm working on this. I'm trying to locate the sunken course that should be on the bottom of Jordan Lake, but after two attempts at finding it, I may have to rebuild it from scratch entirely.

Once each year I visit Coble Ski School for tuning tips and to mainly correct bad habits formed from years of lake skiing. The course will revolutionize the way you ski. That is for sure. PB is 22 off @ 28 mph on a '12 Triumph 69" But I bought the ski blank so I'm not sure I'm at the stock settings. After I moved them forward ( last post ) I felt a little better with the edge change. But I'm calling HO to see what their factory setting is as a base start.

So here is the plan for the summer
* as someone advised above, I'm focusing on elbows tucked in and straight and work on body position and rhythm rather than how much I'm leaning. I can work on the lean and speed later
* as I pass the 2nd wake I'm making an eariler edge change than before which seems to help greatly. Its stable, predictable and doesn't force me to overturn at the apex. But it needs to be consistent and incorporated into every pass
* keeping the handle down and in the hip zone has been key although it just needs to be built into my muscle memory. Across the wake is fine, but during the edge change and turn the handle seems to rise above the hip. I"m working on it

And the other 99 things!

Great tips everyone, I'm actually writing down all of them and logging them to see what helps. I'm making plans to head North to Clarksville VA. I joined a ski club there and hope to hone and fine tune some things so I can measure progress better than lake skiing. Really enjoy the great input, keep it coming and I'll load pics for feedback as things progress.

http://i.imgur.com/3hUTvP8.jpg

[SupraLaunch21V]

All, just wanted to let everyone know that I have responded, but since I'm new I believe my posts go to the Moderator first for approval. Stay tuned. Really liking all of the feedback. You guys rock!

[SupraLaunch21V]

Okay, the Moderator must be slammed. So I'll just reply w/o pics and video this time and load the rest of the stuff later.
First off, thanks to everyone for the great tips. I've actually put them into my notebook to make sure I have some structure when tackling them one at a time.
Here is my hit list for the next month
* pull out drills with a focus on proper position and balance. Need to keep forward and stop 'resting' my weight on the back foot so much. Do three drills and pull-outs before attempting to carve it up. Elbows tucked in and arms straight.

* pre turn - apex - end of turn body position focus on body / ski placement and moving through the turn with the ski by hip ( center of mass ) and core. my turning sucks as I was taught to carve with your back foot. Stop letting go of the handle too soon for my one handed turns, do this later in the transition closer to the ball and with a purpose. Stop flailing arms around like you're a duck that just got shot.

* transition focus on early transition after the 2nd wake by softening the knees ( not bending ) and helping the ski move to the outside while the hips transition to begin your line up to the ball. keep elbows tucked and eyes not on the ball but where you want to turn. Go back to 2nd bullet. Keep a steady rythm and lean. Don't over think it or over load anything.

Then I will move to the other '99' things. Stopping old / bad habits are just killing my progression. I'm skiing with a purpose now and its worlds different than the old 80's skiing I did, for spray, show, and how far you could pull out.

Hope everyone else is making good progress with their goals and seeing improvement. THanks again for the interest in such a great sport and willingness to help out free / course skiers in their journey.

JY

[BensonWdby]

Judging by the offside turn photo. Looks like you have the right grip. Look at where the water is breaking under the ski and the position of your front knee. I would say you have too much weight on the back foot, possibly pushing the ski around with the back foot instead of letting the ski do the turning. I have found this especially hard to overcome.
Also look at where you are looking. I would say that you are looking across too soon. It this point you might benefit from looking more into the back of the boat. Having said that, it does not appear that it has caused too much shoulder rotation.
Speaking of being lite on the line. Doug has actually had me try to open my hand momentarily at the apex of the turn. Strange feeling but it emphasizes the light load concept.
As far as keeping hands low - I think it depends on where you are speaking. I have found that in the pre-turn reaching up-and-in (not low) helps transfer weight to the front of the ski and gets shoulders a good position. If you do this right you will feel the front of the ski engage and finish the turn for you.
It all starts at the beginning of your pass.
Here is a snippet of advice from Wade Cox during a session at The Liquid Edge. BTW - Wad will be at The Liquid Edge in Illinois twice this year. http://theliquidedge.com/

http://bensonwdby.home.comcast.net/~bensonwdby/Wade_Liquid_Edge/Dave/Wade_advice1.wmv