Bad ground? Speakers Popping

[Jughead]

Title says most of it. My speakers are popping but only when I use the trim switch. any suggestions? I follow instructions well and like visual help, LOL I have wired before, and fixed electrical issues on other things, but I have a new to me '06 Outback V and I didn't test those two items at the same time in the test drive!

Also if you have any suggestions as to why the hour meter reads error 1 that would be awesome. I did have it =certified at the dealer as having 155.4 hours

[lewisb13]

Most def a ground issue. Make sure the head unit and amps are grounded alllllllll the way back to the source battery. No grounding strips either, dedicated wires to all devices.

[Jughead]

AMPS check, I will check head unit when I get home tonight....dang work gets in the way of important stuff!

[MLA]

Your pop is most likely caused by the wake plate motor itself. Its a relatively simple fix that involves wiring in a couple of CAPs across the switch. Try doing a search here as I think Phil with Kicker has posted on this subject a few times and has specs on the CAP's and a wiring diagram

[EarmarkMarine]

The trim function on an I/O and the wake plate function on a towboat are known to create a wicked transient through the audio system. The pump motor of either pull a lot of current. The pump motors are triggered by either a relay controlled by a switch or directly by a switch. And it is the arc across the switch or relay contacts that cause the voltage spike. To fix this you place a capacitor on both the 'up' and 'down' triggers. In some really bad instances the parts/circuit need to be more complex. And in some cases the contacts are worn enough that you have to replace the switch.
A ground loop can make your audio system more vulnerable to this noise. But if it were just a ground loop you would probably be picking up other noises as well such as the blower motor or alternator.
Odin with Earmark has the parts to fix any noise scenario including this one which come with very complete instructions.

David

[Jughead]

I stopped by Radio Shack and picked up a couple of caps to give it a go this evening. Tanks for all the input

[Jughead]

17665
17666
17667

4 wires coming out of trim red goes to 25 amp fuse and then to buss bar. The other 3 to back of boat hydraulics Where do I run capacitor


Sent via smoke signal using my Zach Morris brick phone.

[MLA]

Here is a link to a previous post made by Phil where he has provided instructions and a diagram. The easiest place to wire those in will be under the helm where the wires leave the switch.

http://www.wakeworld.com/forum/showthread.php?t=745329

[Jughead]

Awesome just got it done. 95% of pop is gone. Wonder if a larger cap would do better. I am pleased with result but still a little crackle now


Sent via smoke signal using my Zach Morris brick phone.

[philwsailz]

Glad to see you got a source for the image Jughead! Sorry about not getting your PM until this morning.

An item often overlooked, yet really a major contributor to trim pops is the fact that we are energizing a magnetic coil in the valve solenoids. When we hit a switch we pour 12 volts into the coil creating the magnetic portion of a linear motor, causing a hunk of magnetized steel to move, opening a valve. When we release the switch, we turn off the voltage, the magnetic field collapses.... the steel actuator returns to rest, moving through the coil.... Ther are three events total, one being the switch being hit. Then two separate events when you release the switch, although simultaneous... Both potentially making noise.

On the topic of magnetic fields collapsing in coils, how many of you know how a magneto works on a PWC, lawnmower or motorcycle? Flying a magnet by a coil we induce a current and a voltage in the coil called the primary coil. Then the points open, (same as releasing a switch) creating a similar collapsing magnetic field. The collapsing magnetism in the primary coil induces a current and a very high voltage in the secondary coil, which is connected directly to the spark plug! Bottom-line a coil will create a lot of energy when you REMOVE power from it, just like the switch can create a spark which makes its own noise. This in part explains why sometimes you hear pops both when you press the trim switch AND release it.

The second thing to consider when you release the trim switch is the part of the solenoid that moves inside the coil that opens the valve. When you release power, that magnetized metal MOVES from the valve-open position to the valve-closed position. When you move a magnet past a coil what do you get????? ding ding ding.... voltage and current...

So considering this and thinking it through there are actually several contributors all aligned against you in any solenoid controlled device... both when you push the switch AND when you release it.

I am of the opinion that the capacitor installation benefits a trim circuit in two ways. First, when hitting the trim switch to energize the solenoid, the capacitor slows the transition from zero volts to 12 volts in the solenoid coil as a function of charging the capacitor. If viewed upon an oscilloscope the capacitor "rounds over" the sharp transition from zero volts to 12 volts.

Then when the switch is released the capacitor absorbs the transient created by the collapsing magnetic field, shunting it slowly to ground, (slowly is a very relative term here...).

I try to keep my explanations relatively simple, but this one went a little further than usual. Hopfully it makes sense?

Phil
Kicker

[Stazi]

Glad to see you got a source for the image Jughead! Sorry about not getting your PM until this morning.

An item often overlooked, yet really a major contributor to trim pops is the fact that we are energizing a magnetic coil in the valve solenoids. When we hit a switch we pour 12 volts into the coil creating the magnetic portion of a linear motor, causing a hunk of magnetized steel to move, opening a valve. When we release the switch, we turn off the voltage, the magnetic field collapses.... the steel actuator returns to rest, moving through the coil.... Ther are three events total, one being the switch being hit. Then two separate events when you release the switch, although simultaneous... Both potentially making noise.

On the topic of magnetic fields collapsing in coils, how many of you know how a magneto works on a PWC, lawnmower or motorcycle? Flying a magnet by a coil we induce a current and a voltage in the coil called the primary coil. Then the points open, (same as releasing a switch) creating a similar collapsing magnetic field. The collapsing magnetism in the primary coil induces a current and a very high voltage in the secondary coil, which is connected directly to the spark plug! Bottom-line a coil will create a lot of energy when you REMOVE power from it, just like the switch can create a spark which makes its own noise. This in part explains why sometimes you hear pops both when you press the trim switch AND release it.

The second thing to consider when you release the trim switch is the part of the solenoid that moves inside the coil that opens the valve. When you release power, that magnetized metal MOVES from the valve-open position to the valve-closed position. When you move a magnet past a coil what do you get????? ding ding ding.... voltage and current...

So considering this and thinking it through there are actually several contributors all aligned against you in any solenoid controlled device... both when you push the switch AND when you release it.

I am of the opinion that the capacitor installation benefits a trim circuit in two ways. First, when hitting the trim switch to energize the solenoid, the capacitor slows the transition from zero volts to 12 volts in the solenoid coil as a function of charging the capacitor. If viewed upon an oscilloscope the capacitor "rounds over" the sharp transition from zero volts to 12 volts.

Then when the switch is released the capacitor absorbs the transient created by the collapsing magnetic field, shunting it slowly to ground, (slowly is a very relative term here...).

I try to keep my explanations relatively simple, but this one went a little further than usual. Hopfully it makes sense?

Phil
Kicker
Excellent explanation, Phil. I'm gonna have to do this too as I get the pop from my trim switch as well. Another thing I notice is that sometimes when I run my stereo, my trim gauge decides not to work, like there's not enough power supplying all the electronics. I may need to add a second battery or look at a higher output alternator. Weird though, cos all I am running is a 440W JL Audio e4300 (boat speakers)and 650W PPI 650.2 (tower speakers) amps and the KMR-550U HU.

[freshturk]

my towers pop if the volume is up and i turn off the stereo switch, is this normal or a result of a bad ground as well?

[MLA]

This sounds like a turn-on/off timing issue. Are you running a head-unit or is your music source connecting directly to the EQ? If running a head-unit, is it triggering the WS-420 to turn on via the orange turn-on wire or is the dash mounted rocker turning the SW-420 on at the same time as the head-unit?

[freshturk]

dash mounted rocker i believe

[MLA]

The WS-420's Red B+ and GND need to share the same battery source and the head-unit and amp. The WS-420's orange wire needs to be powered by the head-units blue-white turn-on circuit. This insures the best turn on/turn off timing.