recent burglery attempt(s)

[rc5695]

So after 3 WONDERFUL days on 2 different lakes Memorial Day Weekend, we crashed in bed monday night... At 4 am my wife (5 mo. pregnant) gets up and I hear a blood curdling, extremely panicked yell "There's somebody out there!!!"

Turns out she'd thought she heard a vehicle in the driveway and got up to look, since it was nice out and the windows were open, and the moment she peered thru the blinds she saw a guy dressed in black head to toe a few feet from our bedroom window walking towards the back of the house. Scary part is that her scream/yelling didn't even seem to bother him. These guys even had the balls to drive down 400' of driveway right up in front of my van and attached garage!!!

So, I naturally fly outta bed to the window and start yelling at them to get outta here. I never saw the guy (or 2?) walking cuz when she yelled the person in the truck flipped on the headlights (which grabbed my attention) and proceeded to turn around. Again, the driver wasnt in a hurry either. Didn't drive over my bushes or haul butt, just casually did a 3 point turn to turn around and drove off. VERY crazy and un-nerving. Not sure if the guy on foot hopped in the back when he was turning around? I saw that it was an early 90's Chevy that was blue and silver with a loud exhaust. not knowing where the guy on foot was, I proceeded to my closet to try to find my shotgun, which didn't even have a barrel installed on it. Somewhere during this time, I wiped something across my left eye and scratched 40% of my cornea :( Cops showed up 1 hour later (since we ran them off they said we weren't a priority and that we should let them break into whatever they're going to do and call them and tell them burglary in progress...Whatever...) Said there was nothing they could do even if the guys were still there since no crime was committed. I had sat on the back porch with the shotgun til the police got there.

Well, my wife's STILL freaked out today, and doesn't sleep much at night still. That Tuesday night I came home with a nice, new Ruger 38 special and ammo, and Wed. night with a nice lightly used CZ75B 9mm (looks new). Yesterday we picked up a family dog, a 9 mo. old housetrained German Shepherd/Lab mix. Pretty white dog that loves all the kids. Everyone in the house 5+ years old has shot both guns, and all 12+ are familiar with where they are and how to use them.

Oh yes, so a couple days after it happens, some guys (characters) part a red 2-door Mitsubishi in the neighbors driveway mid-day and stop in and ask my wife if they can cut the grass. No mowing equipment, wearing sweatpants. No, she didn't open the door for them, just cracked a window. After she told them "no" they proceeded to ask questions about lawn equipemnt and stuff, to which she told them none of their business and please leave. They took off quickly and she was unable to get a plate number.

Of course, I had to go out of town for a few days for work. One night she said she heard an engine running again and thought she saw lights in the kitchen, and when she got up there was a vehicle leaving the neighbor's driveway, but there's no turn-around in their driveway.

In talking with many neighbors, this silver truck has been run off from other houses on our road (we're not really in a neighborhood so to speak) and been seen casing a neighborhood nearby.

Welcome to my very hectic, sleepless life as of late...

[bergermaister]

Dang man - that whole scenario sucks in the worst way. I would think with that much activity you could get a sheriff out there making their presence known way more frequently.

You want them there quick - tell the dispatcher whoever it is that's uninvited is exposing themself to your children. Hell even if it were just taking a pee in the bushes. They'll come in a hell of a hurry from what I've been told. Your word against theirs but at least the cops get their quickly...

[rc5695]

The cop (early 20's ?) said he put us on some list to where they're "required" to drive by our house once a day.

Interesting idea on getting them there quickly... Whatever it takes right?

[bergermaister]

Yea, not sure how moral that is, but a neighbor clued me in to it. Had problems with some of his neighbors 20-somethings having a loud party. Getting out of hand. Tried to play it cool, talked to the them and they were acting like a bunch of tough guy douche bags basically giving him the f-off. Called the cops and they said something like, sorry more important things going on. He then told them one of the guys was taking a piss in the bushes right in front of his kids in the yard and within 5 minutes he had 3 patrol cars there. Apparently that is the equivalent of exposing yourself.

Depending on how far away your neighbors are I'd be tempted to talk to them and share a night watch schedule of some sort if that's feasible for a few weeks. Some sleep is better than no sleep?

[New Guy]

A quarter stick out the window would probably scare the sh*t out of them enough not to come back.

[maxpower220]

You may want to look at a Crimson Trace Laser for your handgun. Yelling and screaming are one thing, but a red dot on your (or your buddy's) chest is something else. Also, 400' is nothing, so the driver gets a little something too.

For $200, it will give you (and your wife) more confidence. For $100, you definately need night sites.

In the end though, if my gun comes out, odds are the bad guy won't ever see the laser.

[wolfeman131]

oh, this gives me chills!

Once everyone is home & in bed for the night, I'd lay a tack strip down at the top of that 400' of driveway you've got. Put a "No Trespassing" and/or "Private Property" sign just in front of it. Sit back & listen for the pops.

[mmandley]

Good choice in guns man,

I have a CZ-P01 9mm and love it.
http://cz-usa.com/products/view/cz-p01/

I got my 2 dogs, and so fare they have never barked in the middle of the night warning of people where they shouldn't be, but God help who ever comes into my house uninvited, because between the 2 dogs, and my pistol there will be no mercy in my household

[sandm]

if it was my house, in addition, I'd add some motion lighting for people coming down the driveway and invest in a camera system. my sister bought the $250 4-camera/harddrive setup from costco. it has amazing night vision and a 30day harddrive. more importantly, you can log in from anywhere you have wifi/internet including your phone. gave them peace of mind when she was in the duplex and squatters were dealing meth..

[motosno963]

ill keep it simple for me..i have a H&K USP 45 tactical along with a insight laser/ light attached..so if that guy ever step foor in my back yard or peeked into my boat/ garage i will yell out a warning, then a warning shot..and i know if he hears that 45cal rip off he will run..but if he endangers my fam i have no problem shooting him

[cornrickey]

I'm sure you had aong discussion with your wife and the others that have access to the weapons about there potential and how readily they will pass through walls including the long aftermath emotionally and financially after a justifiable shooting.

Don't get me wrong. If someone comes into my house in a manor like you described there going to be taken down but I also know that there is a potential for criminal scrutiny and a even higher, if not guaranteed, civil, wrongful death lawsuit. All of which could go either way but will be a toll. These are all things that need to be taken into consideration.

As for telling the dispatcher something different that what actually is taking place is false reporting, negligent and is a crime.

Additionally the action of a shotgun is the second most reconized sound to Americans. The first is a door bell. I recommend racking it a couple times.

[jmvotto]

Too weird about this, not the same but stil bizarre in its own right.

Friday my wife wakes me up at 3:30, to investigate a strange noise and bright lights.

Our cottage sits right on the water and has full windows on the lakeside, where the bedrooms are.

So she wakes me to check ou the noise and the bright lights were shining in the second floor windows almost blinding us, thought a UFO or a barge or a plane was going to drive thru the house from the lake. I jump out of bed and look out the bedroom window and there seems to be a 25 ft or older Inboard rumbling along at trolling speeds with four giant flood lights shining along the beach front on the houses. Rubbed my eyes again, I squinted through the lights , no fishing poles, hmmm what's up? He went round the point and the buzz of the motor and the lights dimmed away.

Went back to sleep , thought I was in a weird boating movie dream like cape fear or something

30 minutes later he comes back opposite direction again lighting up the shoreline, like a full fledged police raid, again no fishing poles etc., disappears around the north end.

In the am I thought It was a dream and the wife commented on what the heck was tat boat doing at 3:30 am.

So if the Moomba is gone this weekend , then we know he was casing the beach front..

[rc5695]

That's weird Joe V...

So I did lower the tower back down add shove her back in the garage the other night. Looks like it'll be a few weeks before we get back on the water...tower sure is getting heavy with the speakers and racks...

Cornrickey, yes we've discussed this. An actual shot to harm anyone only comes if somebody's life is in danger. But they (criminals) dont' know that...

Yes, we're investigating the laser sights. It may be illegal to carry though, not sure yet. CWP classes come later this month or next. I'm VERY happy with the CZ and we all LOVE shooting it.

[Cigars n scotch]

Cornrickey you make all the sense in the world. Very good response. All firearms owners love to "say" what they'd do if put into a situation that was life threatening and they had there firearm at the ready but it's another thing to actually shoot someone or even fire a warning shot for a justifiable threat. I would get damn well versed on your states laws regarding firearms and discharge and such. A warning shot will land somewhere, you don't know where. A guy in Oregon (a military vet) just got arrested a few weeks ago for firing a warning shot into the ground while some guy tried breaking into his house. Just be smart about your decisions, especially in today's "anti-gun" climate we're unfortunately up against.

Invest in floodlights, a security system with cameras is also a good option. If you haven't created a family plan then sit down and do so with your family.

Hopefully this guy or guys gets caught before anything happens. Scary situation to be in indeed. I've gotten my CCW from FL and UT and when we get settled in SC next month I'm applying for my CFP there as well. My mindset has definitely changed as of late and especially since I have a family now. My wife and I have taken training courses and will be further taking additional concealed carry courses to help with training for scenarios like this and others. You always hope to never have to take that route of using your firearm but one day it just "may" be required.

Hope you put the barrel in that shotty after all this!

Best of luck to you and your family and your safety.

[rc5695]

I shoot in the back yard. We have 5 acres w/ pasture behind us and 2 of my neighbors shoot. I'm not going to 2nd guess my safety in worries of getting in trouble for doing something harmless (wanring shot). Cross that bridge when it comes I guess. much of that seems to be area dependent (state, city, neighborhood, neighbors, etc.) We here in SC like our guns :) Very pro-gun state. Hardest thing to get here is ammo... (and can only get 2 boxes at a time)

We have lots of lights, but I don't like leaving them on all the time. I need to get the motions detectors working I guess. I just like it to be dark at night when it is supposed to be dark, ya know...

Check the laws, your FL or UT CWP may be valid in SC. It is pretty weak here and not accepted in many other states. I heard in GA now all you need tp do is show that you have a gun and apply. No class or shooting necessary! Scary. 1 day class here in SC, ~ $150 total.

Yes, I had the barrel in a few minutes after they left. If the guy was still behind my detached garage or in my woods, he heard me and heard a couple shells racked ;)

Good idea on the family plan layout. Will work on that.

[yz 2smoke]

I have a GA Weapons Carry License; at least that is what is says on the license. You do not even need to own a gun in GA to get a license. I paid 67.25 to the probate court and then went to the Sheriffs office to get finger printed, paid 5 bucks for that. 28 days later my permit was in my pocket. My dad applied for his in Clayton County and it took 2 months for him to get his; he had to talk to someone and explain why he wanted a permit. I just paid money and filled out some paper work. I live in Coweta and they get them to you quick. No classes are needed. (Scary) My license is good in several states, can’t remember them all off the top of my head. The only reason we both got ours was the antigun crap going around.

[maxpower220]

Why would you rack a shotgun, then there is a perfectly good shell laying on the ground and one less round for the bad guy.

I have a CCW in FL, you don't expose your gun. If you do, you should be shooting it. Why shoot a warning shot? If you go to a class on handling weapons, you will never be told to shoot a warning. Do you think the bad guy is going to give you a warning? If things are bad enough to pull out a gun, you are well past warning shots.

Now that you have a gun, the responsible thing to do is routinely go to the range.

[cornrickey]

You rack it for the sound. Although I agree with your statements I would not wait to expose my weapon while in my home unless I decided to go hand to hand or if the threat wasn't elevated to that level.

I store long barreled weapons unloaded and hand guns loaded. If I can scare someone off by the sound of a shotgun instead of making his head a canoe I'll do it everytime. Personal preferen

[rdlangston13]

Y'all all have we're acronyms for these permits. In Texas it is a CHL and they are trying to pass a law to go from a 2 day course to a 1 day course which would save us some money since we are planning on doing it at some point this year. I need to start taking Heidi to the range but its hard since everyday she is off work we try to get in the boat! Me being gone so often with work our new house will have a security system and I'm looking into a tactical 870 for the master bedroom. Gotta get her to shoot that too!


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[motosno963]

well i probably wont shoot a warning shot..sorry that was my ROE's and training..home life if its night ill shot the man if hes in my house..as long as i dont shot him in the back HA...ill have to look into it more ( my one friend is a sheriff and i have a few cop friends) and see whats go and no go

[E4NASH]

Your VP would suggest you shoot a warning shot... ;-)

[jpetty3023]

well i probably wont shoot a warning shot..sorry that was my ROE's and training..home life if its night ill shot the man if hes in my house..as long as i dont shot him in the back HA...ill have to look into it more ( my one friend is a sheriff and i have a few cop friends) and see whats go and no go

I warn you not to take a warning shot


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[wolfeman131]

lay it down for us, Petty. You're a trained professional, so what would you suggest Ryan do?

[jpetty3023]

lay it down for us, Petty. You're a trained professional, so what would you suggest Ryan do?

in TX, if a theft is being committed in the hours of darkness deadly force is authorized. we also have what's called the castle doctrine.

basically, deadly force is authorized if you feel your life, or that of a third person, is in imminent danger in your residence or curtlidge of residence. I said that to say this, if you draw your weapon be prepared to use it. sounds like Ryan has had justifiable cause to use deadly force if he choose to. what you should never do is fire a "warning shot".

you are responsible for each shot you fire and must be aware of your "backdrop". if you are authorized to fire a warning shot ( that round could land anywhere) you should/could be able to articulate how you were in fear for you life. because you were in fear for your life, and to protect your life and the lives of your family members, you applied deadly force.

warning shots are ridiculous, dangerous, and should never be taken. you either have the right to shoot the bad guy or you don't. if you don't have the right to shoot the bad guy and you fire off a warning shot you could be charged accordingly


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[rc5695]

thank you Jason!!!!!

[wolfeman131]

and there is the low down.

Let's just all hope that none of us, even the professionals, finds themselves in a situation that requires deadly force.

[rc5695]

....Let's just all hope that none of us, even the professionals, finds themselves in a situation that requires deadly force.

exactly!!!

[rdlangston13]

In Texas you can be on the phone with a 911 operator who is telling you to stay inside as your neighbors house is being robbed, tell him you are going to kill the thiefs, walk outside and blow them away with a shotgun, and get away with it all hahahahahaha


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[kevkev]

in TX, if a theft is being committed in the hours of darkness deadly force is authorized. we also have what's called the castle doctrine.

basically, deadly force is authorized if you feel your life, or that of a third person, is in imminent danger in your residence or curtlidge of residence. I said that to say this, if you draw your weapon be prepared to use it. sounds like Ryan has had justifiable cause to use deadly force if he choose to. what you should never do is fire a "warning shot".

you are responsible for each shot you fire and must be aware of your "backdrop". if you are authorized to fire a warning shot ( that round could land anywhere) you should/could be able to articulate how you were in fear for you life. because you were in fear for your life, and to protect your life and the lives of your family members, you applied deadly force.

warning shots are ridiculous, dangerous, and should never be taken. you either have the right to shoot the bad guy or you don't. if you don't have the right to shoot the bad guy and you fire off a warning shot you could be charged accordingly


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You also have the right to use deadly force to protect your personal property if I'm not mistaken. This extends into your car if I remember correctly from my CHL class.

[cornrickey]

Why would you want to kill somone for stealing property especially someone else's? Just because you can doesn't always, even rarely, means you should. And I'm not even touching on the moral question. In my mind I don't even get that far. I'm talking pain, suffering and the financial impact of the shooter and their family. Civil lawsuits go for years and cost a unbelievable amount of moneyregardless I you win or loose.

[E4NASH]

f someone enters my house while me and my family is there without permission I will assume they are there with mal intent and they will be dealt with accordingly. They should've thought about the consequences of their actions before attempting to break into my house. If there was a real fear of severe/deadly consequences for committing violent crimes there would be less crimes. You know you would most likely or there is a great possibility of dying if you jump out in front of a truck or jump into a shark tank or tiger cage (bad examples I know but you get the point) so you don't do these things. If criminals actually believed they would face severe penalties or consequences for committing violent crimes they would t do it. 3 hots and a cot, recreation, cable TV, etc psssh please! All for FREE...you and I pay for that and what do those worthless individuals do for us?? NOTHING! Our Justice system is a joke we are becoming too much a nation of tolerance and acceptance and we are weaker for it...bust into my house or threaten me and or my family and I'm going to end you...period[/rant]

[sandm]

and this is how teenage boyfriends sneaking in to see the daughter get shot to death..

I'd be more than happy to hand over anything in my house someone wants. I'm insured. I know it's more than that(rape/attacking/etc.) but for the most part, all most burglars wants is either loot or money. fortunately, I've never lived in an area of town where I felt that owning and potentially using a firearm is a thought.. the ramifications of shooting someone can go on for years. self defense/justified or not, in this sue-happy society there's someone waiting to take any case from the grieving widow of a burglar.

[jmvotto]

What? We have a society of ambulance chasers.... Nooooo

[rdlangston13]

Why would you want to kill somone for stealing property especially someone else's? Just because you can doesn't always, even rarely, means you should. And I'm not even touching on the moral question. In my mind I don't even get that far. I'm talking pain, suffering and the financial impact of the shooter and their family. Civil lawsuits go for years and cost a unbelievable amount of moneyregardless I you win or loose.

I for one hope all the neighbors in my new neighborhood are like Mr Joe Horn. I'm my personal opinion it's not up to me to decide if stealing something is worth a life, it's the crooks decision to decide if stealing something is worth risking his life. Someone breaks in, shoot to kill, the law protects you in TX. If they are dead that's one less thief on the street and one less prisoner to pay for in prison, they made their bed and they can lay in it.


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[Cigars n scotch]

Check the laws, your FL or UT CWP may be valid in SC.


SC as pro2A as it is interestingly enough does not have reciprocity with UT or FL CCW for non-resident permits (which I have). They will honor a resident FL permit though but not a UT resident permit, I find that odd.

http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/florida.pdf
http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/utah.pdf

Langston a lot of states call a concealed carry permit/license something different. CFL, CCW, CFP...no uniformity.

[rc5695]

My opinion is mostly from the moral side. My stuff is not worth another persons life. Period. But I will place the value of my life and my families life over theirs. Sum of it: Don't break into my house while anybody's home. Better keep your butt out by the cars and detached garage.

[rc5695]

FYI: My friend growing up asked me if I remembered the plants in their house? I didn't, but his dad always kept cactii under every window. Good idea...

[bergermaister]

^ Good idea. Nice big rose bushes would probably work as well. My thoughts are similar as those mentioned with moral/legal issues. If you're just on my property you may live - that's up to you. If you're coming in my house with me and my family, and I draw down on you, that is the last thing you're going to see.

[jpetty3023]

this is a story from the city next to where I live and 2 cities to the east of where I work.

http://www.kxxv.com/story/22566835/victim-of-temple-home-invasion


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[KG's Supra24]

I for one hope all the neighbors in my new neighborhood are like Mr Joe Horn.

I didn't keep up with it and don't remember all the details. If it was as basic as I remember ... he should be in prison.

I wonder if he has any regrets looking back on it.

[rdlangston13]

I didn't keep up with it and don't remember all the details. If it was as basic as I remember ... he should be in prison.

I wonder if he has any regrets looking back on it.

Well he is not in prison, the jury said he did the right thing apparently.

I just saw earlier this week some guy in San Antonio I think it was shot and killed a prostitute because she wouldn't sleep with him after he paid her and he got off as well lol.


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[kaneboats]

this is a story from the city next to where I live and 2 cities to the east of where I work.

http://www.kxxv.com/story/22566835/victim-of-temple-home-invasion


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That is a very sad story. Too bad the guy got away and now he's going to do it again and again and again till someone shoots him. If he comes in my house I feel like I have an obligation to everyone else out there to make sure he never does it again.

[rc5695]

figured I'd update y'all with a few pics....
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[jpetty3023]

nice!!


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[bergermaister]

You ever do some proximity alarms around the driveway or corners of the house? Be nice to hear em coming.

Saturday morning mine went off and I shot out of bed and was ready to attack. Turns out my wife had gotten up early to make coffee and went out to throw something in the garbage - located on the same side as the boat parking. It was barely getting light out when I met her at the back door ready to wrap a 9 iron around her head. Didn't even notice she wasn't in the room when I shot up and went charging out... :eek:

[rc5695]

that was a close one Berg!

Our proximity alarm is a 10 month old german shepherd/lab ;)

[C.Hern5972]

You may want to look at a Crimson Trace Laser for your handgun. Yelling and screaming are one thing, but a red dot on your (or your buddy's) chest is something else. Also, 400' is nothing, so the driver gets a little something too.

For $200, it will give you (and your wife) more confidence. For $100, you definately need night sites.

In the end though, if my gun comes out, odds are the bad guy won't ever see the laser.


The Red Dot is a different story for sure. LAser down and they know they are target.


Y'all all have we're acronyms for these permits. In Texas it is a CHL and they are trying to pass a law to go from a 2 day course to a 1 day course which would save us some money since we are planning on doing it at some point this year. I need to start taking Heidi to the range but its hard since everyday she is off work we try to get in the boat! Me being gone so often with work our new house will have a security system and I'm looking into a tactical 870 for the master bedroom. Gotta get her to shoot that too!


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David, We are about to get ours for sure. It would be nice for a 1 day course.


in TX, if a theft is being committed in the hours of darkness deadly force is authorized. we also have what's called the castle doctrine.

basically, deadly force is authorized if you feel your life, or that of a third person, is in imminent danger in your residence or curtlidge of residence. I said that to say this, if you draw your weapon be prepared to use it. sounds like Ryan has had justifiable cause to use deadly force if he choose to. what you should never do is fire a "warning shot".

you are responsible for each shot you fire and must be aware of your "backdrop". if you are authorized to fire a warning shot ( that round could land anywhere) you should/could be able to articulate how you were in fear for you life. because you were in fear for your life, and to protect your life and the lives of your family members, you applied deadly force.

warning shots are ridiculous, dangerous, and should never be taken. you either have the right to shoot the bad guy or you don't. if you don't have the right to shoot the bad guy and you fire off a warning shot you could be charged accordingly


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Thankls for the clarification

[Stazi]

figured I'd update y'all with a few pics....
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Your wife has a better shooting stance than you. You should lean into the gun, not away from it - it makes managing recoil, better. Also close up you fore aft stance and make your stance wider. Google "weaver" stance as it appears to be the closest to what you're shooting now....the isosceles is a more accurate stance still, but takes time to learn.

[New Guy]

I found that a slight bend in my left arm bringing the gun closer helped me not to waver so much. Less of a lever that way.

[cornrickey]

weaver stance is tactical and more applicable to what you need for muscle memory. Tripod is good for target shooting for score. Closer to the body is better for retension. Tell you sig. other that her hand placement needs to be in a "push, pull" position and to not "cup" with her left hand. Push with the right, pull with the left.

[smokedog2]

Ccw starts tomorrow. Making my son go. Too young to carry but should still know the law.

[tgoody14]

in TX, if a theft is being committed in the hours of darkness deadly force is authorized. we also have what's called the castle doctrine.

basically, deadly force is authorized if you feel your life, or that of a third person, is in imminent danger in your residence or curtlidge of residence. I said that to say this, if you draw your weapon be prepared to use it. sounds like Ryan has had justifiable cause to use deadly force if he choose to. what you should never do is fire a "warning shot".

you are responsible for each shot you fire and must be aware of your "backdrop". if you are authorized to fire a warning shot ( that round could land anywhere) you should/could be able to articulate how you were in fear for you life. because you were in fear for your life, and to protect your life and the lives of your family members, you applied deadly force.

warning shots are ridiculous, dangerous, and should never be taken. you either have the right to shoot the bad guy or you don't. if you don't have the right to shoot the bad guy and you fire off a warning shot you could be charged accordingly


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x2! Perfect J! And just to add to that... If/when that time comes to make such a decision, you will have to live the rest of your life with that decision whatever the outcome may be. You don't only have to be physically ready, but also mentally ready to protect you and your loved ones in the case of a life and death situation.
That being said, if your life is in imminent danger and you DO fire your weapon... you don't shoot to injure and you don't shoot when they are fleeing, you shoot to stop the threat and until there is no longer a threat!
For those of you that have and/or are getting your concealed carry license, you better take that course like your life depends on it and pay attention because your life does depend on it! If a situation goes down you are going to be held at a higher standard in court than the average Joe Blow that didn't take the course and who isn't properly "trained" in the use/operation of his gun and the understanding of the law.... Just food for thought guys. Get educated, knowledge is power!

[kaneboats]

This lady made more than one mistake but it also illustrates why a warning shot is foolish:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/may/19/woman-gets-20-years-firing-warning-shot/?page=all

[maxpower220]

This lady made more than one mistake but it also illustrates why a warning shot is foolish:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/may/19/woman-gets-20-years-firing-warning-shot/?page=all

That is a funny story, "women and blacks are treated different" under the mandatory minimum limits. Also, according to the story, "she closed her eyes and shoot, after she left the house and got her gun from her car and came back in".

That's "Stand your ground after you go get your gun."

[rc5695]

Thanks to all of you for the tips. We're new to handguns, myself included. Mostly just shot shotguns...