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c5er
02-03-2013, 10:50 AM
Bought a 2012 LSV last fall. The stereo - package A, 4 cabin speakers only, like all stock system is weak.

I am not looking for tower speakers, but am looking to have a descent stereo for cruising or at least hear it while the engine is running.

What is the next basic, best bang for the buck, to improve the stereo?

Adding an Amp between existing head unit and speakers?
Small Sub?

Should I add bow speakers and how much of a PITA is that?

Not looking for a killer system just something that sounds better than whats there.

mmandley
02-03-2013, 11:10 AM
Great looking boat man.
The best Bang for the buck is adding an amp.

You should have kicker speakers, and while they dont sound the best right now, add 100 a channel amp and they will wake right up.

You can get a shop to install an amp fairly cheap due to the 12 already has an amp board, and the batteries are very close by.

Adding BOW speakers is a bit of work but mostly its cutting the holes. I think Ian Ashton did a set for one of his buddies boats.

Next thing you might consider is getting a 10icnh sub added, these can be done by a shop for a reasonable amount and will really give depth to your music and make it sound rich in the cabin. You can very easly have a shop do an amp, sub, install for under 1K.

Bow speakers to add at a should shouldnt be more then a couple hundred.

kaneboats
02-03-2013, 11:52 AM
Definitely recommend doing it all at once and getting enough amp to do the whole job. Sub makes a huge difference and actually helps your in boat speakers sound better because their amp can be set to HP (high pass). This was one of the first things I learned about this stuff.

MLA
02-03-2013, 12:42 PM
All good advice. Top of the line speakers can sound like poo on just head-unit power, while cheapest off-brand will sound like gold with some power behind them. Adding an amp will give you the needed power to get up and over the engine, wind and water noise while under way. Adding a pair of bow speaker can also help while under way by getting some sound out in front of you, rather then the main cabin speakers that can be behind you. A mild 10" sub will make a world of difference for the system. It will fill in those lower notes that the in-boats do not like to play.

c5er
02-03-2013, 10:58 PM
Thanks for the input. Looking at the radio manual I see the speakers are connected via the radio harness. I also see the radio has RCA out for an amp for 4 speakers and an output for a amp for subs.

Does anyone know how the speakers are connected to the wiring harness? Do they need to be cut are are they have disconnects?

Would I be best off getting a Sony amp such as Sony XM-604M, which gives you 60/channel over stock stereos 17 or will will that still be too weak?

I would still need another amp just for a sub. Where would you mount a sub?

Its a small lake and I dont want to annoy the neighbors, but would like to hear the radio.

jfox8807
02-04-2013, 03:01 AM
my boat a 2011 xlv had a disconnect but u would still have to cut the wires loose from the radio. if you plan on adding an external amp. i would recommend replacing the factory wiring tho mine developed a bad connection in the wiring harness and cause speakers to drop out. i replaced it with cadence 14ga it was very cheap and only took couple hours and made a big difference. it only took a hundred ft of wire. and had a bit left over. how ever mine had bow speakers so urs should take less wire and less time. a external amp will do wonders for ur stock speakers it will sound like a completely different set up and remember its better to over power the speaker and than to under power the speaker. if it calls for 100 rms it would be better to have 120 rms than 90 rms. brand has no matter just need to make sure its a quality unit and has a true rating. if the amp is cea compliant its a pretty good pice of hardware.

a sub would help lots too. i have 2 10's under the drivers helm of my boat.

hope it helps

MLA
02-04-2013, 09:28 AM
C5er

I do not know a ton about that Sony amp, but heres what I can say at first glance. Although the amp cap run low-pass on the chnls 3/4 for a sub, its only going to deliver 160W for a sub. This leaves chnls 1 and 2 to drive your 4 in-boats. With a pair of speakers per chnl, they will only be receiving 35W each. For the time and investment, I would like to see them receive more. So, I would suggest using that amp to jun all 4 in-boats IF you when with that amp. Another reason why I recommend not running a sub off that amp, this kinda puts the cart before the horse. This amp will directly dictate the the sub. To make the most of the gear, we try to best match the driver's watts RMS with the amps RMS at a given load. 160W is not much for a sub in an open environment like a boat. I would let the available space you have for an enclosure, dictate the shape, style and gross volume of the enclosure. This will intern have some bearing on the best sub for that install. Now that the sub is chosen, then the best amp can be picked out. I would probably wait till the sub is determined, before buying any amps, unless the sub is going to be done as a 2nd phase. There are lots for 5 and 6 chnl amps out there that will drive all the in-boats and a sub. They are 2 amps in one chassis, so install is easy and do not take up a lot of space.

On the flip side, I do not know if its old-school power hungry Class-A/B or high efficient full-range Class-D on the power supply side. Class-a/B amps can be found cheap and the sound quality was the bench-mark for years, but for a boat system where we often rely on just battery power, spending a little more on Class-D is a worth while investment. The will consume far less battery amp hours while producing the same watts output. This means longer play time, less unwanted heat produced in the storage locker and shallower battery cycles.

EarmarkMarine
02-04-2013, 10:18 AM
I want to add a bit more info to what Mike (MLA) wrote about Class AB. Yes, Class AB and Class A was the sound quality benchmark up until this century. Class AB is a solution to the awful distortion in Class B. That is where the positive and negative transistors are not linear from zero voltage to a given voltage but are very fast from a given voltage to any change in voltage. It's like a relay race where the runners can't run at the same speed in order to hand off. So there is immense distortion through the transition (or hand-off so to speak). Class AB solves this by using a bias voltage to both the + & - transistors so they are alrady operating within their linear range. This opposing bias voltage cancels each other but eats up and wastes a ton of energy lost as heat. So the band aid for the artifacts of Class B is precisely what creates the excessive heat and inefficiency in Class AB.
The analog switching artifacts of Class D may be present in a poorly designed or cheaper product. Like anything there are various quality levels. But now the better Class D amplifiers are the sound quality equal of the better Class AB amplifiers BUT with a 60 percent efficiency increase. Class D has been adopted by several of the most esoteric home Hi Fi companies. And those cork sniffers do not settle for anything less than perfection.

David

mmandley
02-04-2013, 10:44 AM
Thanks for the input. Looking at the radio manual I see the speakers are connected via the radio harness. I also see the radio has RCA out for an amp for 4 speakers and an output for a amp for subs.

Does anyone know how the speakers are connected to the wiring harness? Do they need to be cut are are they have disconnects?

I would still need another amp just for a sub. Where would you mount a sub?

.

Yes there will be a harness with a male and felmale connector. I prefer to keep this connection spot because it allows me to just disconnect and do all my wires without them reconnect it. The factory only runs the harness up high and leaves no room very little room to strip and put new terminals on the wires. Plus i liked the fact the wires already had tags telling me what speakers they were going to.

There is nothing wrong with just home running new wires from each speaker though.

Id reccomend a seperate amp for the Sub, since you are looking to keep the costs down, and you want just a nice pleasurable sounding system in the boat, and not something to make the other resisdents on the lake mad. I would look into 5 channel amps. Kicker has a nice 5 channel as well as several others. This will give you a 4 channel amp for High pass on your cabins, and a single Low pass with enough power to run your sub. This also keeps wires simple.

As for placement, the 12 LSV is the new Top Hull and has a ton of room in the cubby, you can simply build a box for that area and slid it up to the bow seats. You might have issues once you close the observer seat and if you store gear because you will be suficatting the sub.

What i would reccomend is the Drivers area under the dash. That hump in the floor unscrews. Then you have a big space up there. I would <and i plan to on my 13 Mojo> have the box up there. Then when you put the floor in make a hole in the upper panel with the carpet, or remove it all together to allow the sub to breath.

sandm
02-04-2013, 11:42 AM
Class D has been adopted by several of the most esoteric home Hi Fi companies. And those cork sniffers do not settle for anything less than perfection.
David

this made me chuckle a little..

so to further this, and it's really off topic-sorry, I am shopping for a new home receiver and did a little daydreaming as we all do. I thought that home audio really biased toward class a for the clean sound and tubes were the very high end of that. when did class d come about and why the trend since most audio snobs are of a higher income bracket and there's no concern with running out of power in the wall plug? more of a "green" statement??

EarmarkMarine
02-04-2013, 12:09 PM
sandm,
That is a very good question. And there are many good reasons.
You are right in that it is much easier 'lowering' the voltage in an AC home component than it is to 'step up' the voltage in a DC auto/marine component (especially since transformers do not work in the DC realm). And you have an endless supply of AC power in the home. There is no 'at rest'.
So let's say you are placing a full and biggy 7.1 home theater system along with whole house distribution, including 4 to 8 outside speakers around the pool and pool house, etc. in a converted closet. That either constitutes a ton of amplifier channels or some really huge amplifiers with a matching multi-tap autoformer. Now the 15 amp service capacity is way beyond toast and you place your expensive electronics at risk from sagging voltage. Even twin 15 amp services will get challenged. So enter fullrange Class D for the whole house distribution.
I have some pretty big Sherbourne amplifiers in home that are Class H. So higher efficiency has caught on in the home too.
Several editions ago in Absolute Sound they had a very long feature article about Class D with just about every top amplifier engineer in the home Hi Fi biz. Yep, including the tube and Class A pipe smokin' guys with twead jackets and suede elbow pads. And, you don't get that type of attention unless the technology has come of age.

David

sandm
02-04-2013, 01:10 PM
intriguing.

I see the issue with large whole house audio/home theater all being ran off a single room. I guess I figured that the home theater guys would take to this route as most houses don't have a separate power run to a location and if they did, still lots of other gear plugged into it, but the tweed pipe smokers seem that it's more about a pair of mono amps driving a pair of speakers with a preamp and either a turntable or a high end cd player. in this case, I would think that class d would be perceived as introducing sonic imperfections into the signal source and would prefer class a as there would not be as large an issue with outlets as the "drive 80 speakers and a theater off one outlet" guy.


it's absolutely daunting all the choices out there. want to get into hdmi switching from the receiver for simplistic sake. replacing an Onkyo TXDS-838 that has served me very well. old school, but was hella-expensive when I bought it and sonically, a solid unit(couldn't afford the 939 or the hk signature 2.0 separates that were the competing units).

EarmarkMarine
02-04-2013, 02:59 PM
sandm,
I miss the golden years of simple two-channel home audio. Like an old school analog dial with a heavy flywheel. I recently got an FM/AM/XM home tuner for whole house and you can tune only as fast as the tuner responds. The menu and functionality is retarted. I actually had to read the manual to figure out how to enter the presets. Bottom line, even though it's from a prestigious brand, it's still a POS.
Speaker value I can definitely see and the good ones for home have gotten super expensive.
A lot of the other esoteric stuff is just placebo effect. And many will cling to things well past their expiration date.
Class D well done has no audible artifacts in the context of what we do in boats or cars. It would be crazy to be listening to an esoteric SACD with D to A conversion talking about how you hear this or that from a top analog switching D amplifier. Kind of the pot calling the kettle black. But again, there are different levels of everything. The difference maker for Class D was the more recent advent of super high speed microprocessors and transistors that keep the switching frequency perhaps 20 times what our audible bandwidth is. It's the same for the evolution of fullrange Class H where the power supply has to track the audio signal super fast. That would have artifacts if the devices were slower. Speed has changed both topologies.

David

sandm
02-04-2013, 04:04 PM
someday I'll get the old man's extra stereo. it's a technics 35wpc old school lighted dial receiver, a bic turntable that has the clear bottom on it and a real wood frame, and an old super expensive pioneer tape unit that didn't have autoreverse, you had to grab the tape out and flip it(no door, the "door" is over the head and roller assembly. he ditched the polk monitor 10b's as they were way old, but I know I can find some "old school" speakers to compliment it. speaker technology doesn't seem as dependent on all the new electronics. it'll find a home in the empty spare bedroom and become a "listening" room. gotta love the old pops and hiss of vinyl..

oh well. I kind of want to spend some cash on a decent preamp and add external amps, but it's real hard to find a hdmi switching preamp that doesn't drain the bank account.. sure it'll be a receiver/amp combo. lots of good stuff out there if you shop.. wish we had a better selection of brands above best buy(nothing worth shopping there), but our single local shop looks down on you if you are not spending krell/martin logan money :(

viking
02-04-2013, 04:33 PM
Hi-Jack Accomplished :)
interesting stuff tho.................

sandm
02-04-2013, 04:40 PM
ya, feel kind of bad, but I think he got the right info :)

besides, maybe he's looking for a new home receiver as well :)

KG's Supra24
02-04-2013, 05:05 PM
besides, maybe he's looking for a new home receiver as well :)

I hoped to be looking for one soon but not after this convo. I'm lost.

EarmarkMarine
02-04-2013, 05:18 PM
sandm,
To get you by for the short term, could you depend on the LCD/LED to output the audio thereby acting as the selector? They make digital audio to analog audio convertors...for maybe under $100.

sandm
02-04-2013, 05:36 PM
it's hooked up that way currently. everything ran to the tv and then to the receiver. downside is the tv struggles switching between different hdmi inputs with the harmony remote. something to do with sony tv/dvd and a bd setting. it senses the dvd player and will automagically switch inputs for it, but does not sense the wii or dish receiver to switch back to the correct input on the tv. also tough to get ac3/digital signal to the receiver that way(tv not smart enough to switch between digital/analog that I can see). figured it's easier to run hdmi to a receiver, let it use the signal it needs for audio and then run a single component vid or hdmi to the tv. would also allow me to use the receiver as a 2ch straight from the dish unit to play the sirius channels and negate the need for the tv to be on. couple simple macros should get me that result.

really, it's an excuse to upgrade to a new receiver :) the onkyo is a solid unit, but it's only 5.1, no hdmi. I am leary about losing what I percieve is a pretty high quality output setup in that receiver and that it'll take a spendy unit to replace that, but it's time :) I know when I bought it, it has a pretty beefy output and additional dac's that their cheaper lines did not. heck pick it up and it weighs a ton compared to some of the stuff on the shelf today. that used to be a pretty good indicator of quality construction.

dusty2221
02-04-2013, 06:42 PM
Like KG, I am also approaching a potential full home audio install, except..after reading all of this....wut?

David, I may just have to have you come walk thru the house and doodle me up a picture of where all the wires need to come from and go too.

EarmarkMarine
02-04-2013, 08:14 PM
sandm,
TVs wouldn't make the investment to switch between analog/digital audio because they would have the added cost of multiple D to A and A to D conversions. I'm pretty sure that any HDMI source will not output from a TV's L/R analog RCAs. But I am assuming that it will switch and output from ALL HDMI sources on a digital audio output. However, the digital audio out will not output analog audio sources such as component video or composite video. So if you have a mix I'm guessing you have a no go but possibly for different reasons than you stated. But if all are the same, whether digital or analog, it could work. I am only trying to look at it from the logic of how things 'should' work....but I'm speculating here.
I use my TV as the selector but I stayed with component video on everything as it's only a 37-inch set. If I change the set to a newer unit with more HDMI and less component inputs then I could have new challenges ahead. Btw, did I happen to mention that I have zero passion for video, unlike audio? I watch the content but I don't get into the technology.
Dusty,
I do doodle.

David

c5er
02-05-2013, 12:00 AM
Good info on the boat, I am pretty sure i know what direction to go, just need to start looking at components.

We also picked up a pontoon this year and I want to add an amp to it as well.

As it turns out I am also looking at new Home Theater receivers. Mostly because it sits in the utility room on the basement and the new models can be control from Ipad or android pad rather then putting in an IR repeater.

sandm
02-05-2013, 10:51 AM
I agree 100% on the tv vs audio david..
I'd not have a tv at all if it wasn't for the fact that you miss out on what's going on in the world. right now, 99% of the time, I come home and click on the receiver to a sirius channel and let that play. I don't think my tv gets used more than 5-7hrs/wk and cut that in half in the summer. now the receiver sees 3x that usage :)

kaneboats
02-05-2013, 10:53 AM
The TV is for watching stuff you have on your DVR. Try "Justified" on FX if you need something cool to watch.

sandm
02-05-2013, 12:10 PM
last thing in the world I think anyone "needs" are more reasons to park in front of a tv :)

jfox8807
02-07-2013, 05:29 AM
To the best of my knowledge I haven't turned on a tv in about 2 months and proble only seen 30 min cumlitive in passing or visiting with friends since then. I haven't missed it at all. Now, the radio on the other hand pretty much stays on. It doesn't stop me from getting stuff done either like the tv would. It's amazing how much more I get done without tv.

mmandley
02-07-2013, 10:15 AM
To the best of my knowledge I haven't turned on a tv in about 2 months and proble only seen 30 min cumlitive in passing or visiting with friends since then. I haven't missed it at all. Now, the radio on the other hand pretty much stays on. It doesn't stop me from getting stuff done either like the tv would. It's amazing how much more I get done without tv.

Thats what i do on my weekends when i got stuff to do. i get up, shower, have coffee while i check the forum and FB just like i do before going to work. Never even goto the living room. Then head outside and start getting stuff done.

If i stop for a tv break im done, ill sit there and get lazy and make excuses as to why i got time to watch tv LOL

When we moved to the new house we didnt get Cable, because i feel like i have to watch X amount of TV to justify the cost. So we just have Netflix on demand and Hulu+. between those we can find planty to watch and its only about 24 a month.

EarmarkMarine
02-07-2013, 10:27 AM
Funny. I don't sleep without the TV on in the background. When it's time to crash, I turn the tube on so it does all the thinking while I do the vegetating. This keeps my mind from racing so I can fall asleep.

New Guy
02-07-2013, 10:41 AM
Interesting info in here guys! I am just venturing into the world of home theater. Like most of you guys I don't watch much TV but a good movie will suck me in all the time. I am going to be running a Benq w1070 projector shooting on a 110" screen. I have not even begun to thin about the audio end of it yet because it is an acoustic nightmare of concrete.

OH and Scott any time you want to come and listen to some vinyl on the old Hi-Fi setup hit me up when your in Wisconsin.

rdlangston13
02-07-2013, 12:17 PM
last thing in the world I think anyone "needs" are more reasons to park in front of a tv :)

Wow I guess I am the odd ball here. During my 2 weeks off of work every month I watch a ton of TV simply because if I don't I will be out doing something else that costs a lot of money. TV is a relatively inexpensive form of entertainment and it keeps the truck parked not burning gas and the debit card in my wallet.

wolfeman131
02-07-2013, 01:42 PM
ah, today's youth at it's finest . . . .

walk to the library & get a book.

rdlangston13
02-07-2013, 01:46 PM
ah, today's youth at it's finest . . . .

walk to the library & get a book.

library is not within walking distance

wolfeman131
02-07-2013, 01:52 PM
there's always and excuse . . . .

buy a kindle for what it costs for a tank of gas & order a book.

jpetty3023
02-07-2013, 02:10 PM
there's always and excuse . . . .

buy a kindle for what it costs for a tank of gas & order a book.

don't waste your money on a kindle. for 10 tanks of gas you can get an ipad


sent from my home phone

viking
02-07-2013, 02:14 PM
Funny. I don't sleep without the TV on in the background. When it's time to crash, I turn the tube on so it does all the thinking while I do the vegetating. This keeps my mind from racing so I can fall asleep.

Ha - ditto on that!!

sandm
02-07-2013, 02:21 PM
Scott any time you want to come and listen to some vinyl on the old Hi-Fi setup hit me up when your in Wisconsin.

thanks for the offer. hate the corporate waiting game :( hoping to find out middle of next week.

EarmarkMarine
02-07-2013, 02:28 PM
ah, today's youth at it's finest . . . .

walk to the library & get a book.

Like when I was a lad and had to walk 10 miles to school, there and back, in the sleet and snow. And, then did my homework studies by the light of the fireplace.

kaneboats
02-07-2013, 02:32 PM
Had to write on a shovel using coal cuz we had no paper; never heard of leftovers cuz we barely had dinner; we were so poor we couldn't pay attention . . .

Brianinpdx
02-07-2013, 02:53 PM
It's getting deep in here.... must be winter.

David - your comment about the TV brought back some travel memories. Back in my Phoenix Gold days, I used to room with Larry Frederick (our great prez wouldnt spring for to rooms). That guy used to do the same thing with the TV. I'd think, no big deal, I can handle this.. .but then I'd wake up an hour later and the dude would be snoring so loud, you couldnt even hear the TV. Was like a big block chevy. He'd wake up the next day, "you get some sleep?" No man... my brain feels like a bag of skittles and I dreamed about redneck auctions. those where the days.

EarmarkMarine
02-07-2013, 03:04 PM
It's getting deep in here.... must be winter.

David - your comment about the TV brought back some travel memories. Back in my Phoenix Gold days, I used to room with Larry Frederick (our great prez wouldnt spring for to rooms). That guy used to do the same thing with the TV. I'd think, no big deal, I can handle this.. .but then I'd wake up an hour later and the dude would be snoring so loud, you couldnt even hear the TV. Was like a big block chevy. He'd wake up the next day, "you get some sleep?" No man... my brain feels like a bag of skittles and I dreamed about redneck auctions. those where the days.

Then you might know why they called him Frederick of Hollywood?

rdlangston13
02-07-2013, 03:19 PM
I have not read a book since i spent a month floating on a rig off the coast of Egypt. I read then entire Ezekiel Option series that month.