Tweeter help

[ditchsnake]

I am running 6 wetsound 650's and two jl audio 10 subs for my interior speakers. I need more highs especially when under way. I have been thinking abount adding some tweets probablt 2 pair. I have two channels on an alpine amp that are free. Here are my questions, What tweets do you like and do tweeters have to be marine. I like MB Quarts because they are so bright. The two in the front will get wet. With the two seperate free channels I should be able to set gains so they all blend. Any thoughts or ideas? Thanks gene

[jfox8807]

hey Gene what do u have powering all this.

[MLA]

No, they do not need to be marine, but construction would add to their lifespan if they will be located where they will receive direct sunlight and water.

Im curious where your current 6 in-boats are located and the amp driving them. Have you done any testing to confirm all the tweeters are working? The 650 has a strong 1" tweeter and this is not a common complaint we hear from a setup with 6 in-boats.

[ditchsnake]

hey Gene what do u have powering all this.

1000 watt alpine mono block for the subs and two alping 4.150 amps. 150x6@4ohms should be plenty. That still leaves me with twox150 channels doing nothing

[ditchsnake]

Just checked the tweeters and they all work. Location is the problem. They are all in stock locations. A pair in the helm and the four in the side compartments. Again they don't sound bad while sitting but a pair of tweets in a better locatiuon would be better under way
No, they do not need to be marine, but construction would add to their lifespan if they will be located where they will receive direct sunlight and water.

Im curious where your current 6 in-boats are located and the amp driving them. Have you done any testing to confirm all the tweeters are working? The 650 has a strong 1" tweeter and this is not a common complaint we hear from a setup with 6 in-boats.

[jmvotto]

I had these surface mount pioneers in my auto years ago, something similar, sounded great and you could Velcro them anywhere.
http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_9132_Pioneer-TS-T110.html

But if I were going fixed I would look ino the jl separate tweeters.

[EarmarkMarine]

The Wetsounds coaxials have an aggressive top end (voiced specifically for in-boat use) so I was also surprised to hear this. However, the location can make a difference.
Going forward with supplemental tweeters keep a couple of issues in mind.
Detached (separated by distance) tweeters can sound extremely abrasive and destroy any resemblance to an image. So try and keep supplemental tweeters vertically aligned with a dominant set of coaxails. On the other hand, if you are trying to correct a scenario where all four cockpit coaxials are behind you (the driver) with nothing in front of you (bow speakers don't count) then horizontally detached tweeters are the only solution. But this introduces new problems that you have yet to experience.
Don't waste added tweeters, which are highly directional as the high frequency increases, in a location where you, as the driver, cannot benefit. One carefully placed set should do the trick.
One tweeter isn't necessarily brighter than another as a standalone driver. It's the hotter relationship between the tweeter and midbass driver that creates that perception.
If you get too aggressive with tweeters you will kill the integrity of all vocals. So I would attenuate the tweeter enough to maintain some musicality and I would raise the crossover point on the supplemental tweeter so that it accentuates vocals less and percussion/upper harmonics more. A higher crossover selection may in fact be all the attenuation that you need in order to keep balanced vocals while restoring the distinctive qualities and detailed highs.
If you have a pair of dedicated tweeter channels then you might consider adding a Pac LC-1 as a convenient adjustment tool.

David

[ditchsnake]

The Wetsounds coaxials have an aggressive top end (voiced specifically for in-boat use) so I was also surprised to hear this. However, the location can make a difference.
Going forward with supplemental tweeters keep a couple of issues in mind.
Detached (separated by distance) tweeters can sound extremely abrasive and destroy any resemblance to an image. So try and keep supplemental tweeters vertically aligned with a dominant set of coaxails. On the other hand, if you are trying to correct a scenario where all four cockpit coaxials are behind you (the driver) with nothing in front of you (bow speakers don't count) then horizontally detached tweeters are the only solution. But this introduces new problems that you have yet to experience.
Don't waste added tweeters, which are highly directional as the high frequency increases, in a location where you, as the driver, cannot benefit. One carefully placed set should do the trick.
One tweeter isn't necessarily brighter than another as a standalone driver. It's the hotter relationship between the tweeter and midbass driver that creates that perception.
If you get too aggressive with tweeters you will kill the integrity of all vocals. So I would attenuate the tweeter enough to maintain some musicality and I would raise the crossover point on the supplemental tweeter so that it accentuates vocals less and percussion/upper harmonics more. A higher crossover selection may in fact be all the attenuation that you need in order to keep balanced vocals while restoring the distinctive qualities and detailed highs.
If you have a pair of dedicated tweeter channels then you might consider adding a Pac LC-1 as a convenient adjustment tool.

David

So I was just reading some posts in another audio thread and I was thinking damm some of these guys are smart. David I love reading your posts. They are always helpful. So I reread this thread and was thinking about what you said about wetsounds being aggressive on the top end so I did some more checking. I wanted to share how dumb I am. Someone got in the head unit and treble was at -6. Set back to 0 and it doesn't sound like crap anymore. Must have been riding that way for months. Da

[kaneboats]

You raise a good point. Lots of us kind of "tune" (for lack of a better word, maybe "set" would be better in my case as lots of you would laugh at my attempts to "tune" anything-- I can't tuna fork) at the time of an install or addition to the system. Then we just leave it. Maybe we should all consider a "retune" each spring as we prepare for the year and a checkup tune periodically as well.

[EarmarkMarine]

So I was just reading some posts in another audio thread and I was thinking damm some of these guys are smart. David I love reading your posts. They are always helpful. So I reread this thread and was thinking about what you said about wetsounds being aggressive on the top end so I did some more checking. I wanted to share how dumb I am. Someone got in the head unit and treble was at -6. Set back to 0 and it doesn't sound like crap anymore. Must have been riding that way for months. Da

Thanks, but I was just trying to get my post count up.
I'm glad we saved you the cost and hassle of the extra tweeters.
It's funny, or not so funny, how often people form a fixed and unbreakable opinion based on a one time exposure to a poorly designed, poorly tuned/set, or poorly executed product or system.
In a similar way to your experience, the smallest details can acummulate to have either a significant positive or negative impact on the system quality. Box/woofer design, box tuning frequency, crossover selection, gain structure, system efficiency, and countless other layers can have more to do with the final performance than the particular product.

David

[ditchsnake]

Now thats a good idea. Maybe david will give us some input on crossover settings. HP settings for 650's and hp settings on rev 10's and a rev410. LP settings for 2 jl audio 10w3's. And what the hell is slope. I've got the gain settings down. Thanks
You raise a good point. Lots of us kind of "tune" (for lack of a better word, maybe "set" would be better in my case as lots of you would laugh at my attempts to "tune" anything-- I can't tuna fork) at the time of an install or addition to the system. Then we just leave it. Maybe we should all consider a "retune" each spring as we prepare for the year and a checkup tune periodically as well.

[ditchsnake]

David thats so true and to make things worse, stereo in the boat must be like meth. Put it in and oh thats good. After a while it's man I could use a little more.
Thanks, but I was just trying to get my post count up.
I'm glad we saved you the cost and hassle of the extra tweeters.
It's funny, or not so funny, how often people form a fixed and unbreakable opinion based on a one time exposure to a poorly designed, poorly tuned/set, or poorly executed product or system.
In a similar way to your experience, the smallest details can acummulate to have either a significant positive or negative impact on the system quality. Box/woofer design, box tuning frequency, crossover selection, gain structure, system efficiency, and countless other layers can have more to do with the final performance than the particular product.

David

[EarmarkMarine]

" And what the hell is slope. "

This is easy to explain in graphic form but a mess to explain verbally. I'll try.
You have highpass filters that cut out the lows. You have lowpass filters that cut out highs. These filters reference a certain frequency or crossover intersection where typically both the highpass and lowpass are -3 dB down (half power).
Ideally the two sides, both at -3 dB, will then sum through the crossover region for 0 dB and a smooth transition.
The filters do not work like a brick wall. They start at a more gradual "slope" above the crossover frequency and settle into a fixed and steeper slope below the crossover frequency. The slope represents the level of attenuation per octave once that filter has settled into the fixed slope. -3 dB is half power. -6 dB is one quarter power. And so on.
a 6 dB slope is a 1st order. (-6 dB attenuation per every octave).
a 12 dB slope is a 2nd order.
18dB=3rd order.
24dB=4th order.
With any non-linear change in amplitude you have a corresponding phase shift. The inverse is also true. The two are inseparable and law. Not like a polarity change of 180 degrees, but more of a phase rotation from 0 to 90 degress for a 1st order filter, for example. Each filter slope has a particular phase rotation as the filters progress.
How does this apply to a crossover? Differently in each application. Different vehicles with different dimensions, different products, different speaker locations relating to different wavelengths, etc. uniquely benefit from different filter slopes.
Typically you want a symmetrical crossover with as little overlap as possible because the low and high pass filters are going through opposing phase shifts. This will aid a coherent transition. Many other issues can contribute to a phase shift so you may run asymmetrical crossover points or slopes to compensate.
Understanding all these issues and being to use these tools allow you to repair certain problems that an equalizer cannot.
Of course, you have to be able to first identify the issues you have.
That's really the tip of the iceberg.
For us, setting up gain structures and crossovers is according to a particualr prescription that we have written specifically for boats. It is independent of product. Even the intermediate version is a book. But we assist our customers step by step on a level that they are comfortable with. Usually with we stick to the basics. Several of the members here have been through the short process. It's not like root canal. But tuning can make a gigantic difference between two systems that are otherwise equal.

David

[ditchsnake]

David I think I got it. Most of it anyways. No overlap on HP and LP as the slope will aid in the transition. Only question is the higher the db the quicker the slope or drop off?

[EarmarkMarine]

Yes, within the in-boat zone use the same frequency for both highpass and lowpass to keep the overlap region to a minimum, assuming that the amplitude of the lowpass and highpass are equal. Just realize that if you increase the sub level over the highpass level, you widened the overlap and may want to reset the lowpass frequency to compensate.
Normally in an open-field environment I prefer the shallower 12 dB slope over the steeper 24 dB slope.
David

[ditchsnake]

Thank you, sounds like a tune up is in order this spring.