Amps Over Heating

[rdlangston13]

So I was out this weekend tied up on the island and my exile amps kept over heating and cutting off. The air temp outside was probably around 100 F so I know the conditions were not great but my buddies boat next to me never had this problem. I could only play for about 20 mins at a time and then it would just shut off. Anyone else have an issue like this and if so how did you fix it?

[brain_rinse]

What's your battery/wiring setup? Did you discuss with Brian at Exile yet?

[viking]

I have a pair of JL Audio MHD 600/4 amps and one of them keeps going into protect as well.
Built an amp rack with cooling fans and it helps but it did not solve the issue completely on hot days and running the tunes wide out. Chalk it up to a day in the life of a bigger system. You can spend more & more & more & more and upgrade till your hearts content. I just live with it and prop open my observers seat and take it easy on the hot days.

[brain_rinse]

I have a pair of JL Audio MHD 600/4 amps and one of them keeps going into protect as well.
Built an amp rack with cooling fans and it helps but it did not solve the issue completely on hot days and running the tunes wide out. Chalk it up to a day in the life of a bigger system. You can spend more & more & more & more and upgrade till your hearts content. I just live with it and prop open my observers seat and take it easy on the hot days.
Wow, I'm really surprised you're having this issue with Class D amps...

[rdlangston13]

i have no talked with brian yet but my wiring set up with 0 gauge wire from the battery to a distribution block, then 4 gauge wire from there to the amps.

i did just talk to the exile dealer brian had build my sub box and he said its 113 heat index outside, they are going to shut off and his do the same thing. he recommended a 12v fan that plugs into the cigarette lighter for hot days

[dusty2221]

Rd, I'm running the Hybrid setup on my tower and I am shutting my Harpoon down as well. I've got external fans wired permanently in that blow "cooler"(if there is such a thing during Texas summer) air directly onto and around the Harpoon, as it is offset from my rack by 1/4" and the entire area behind the Harpoon on my rack is cut out so it is completely open behind it. Anytime we play in a cove or beach, I move everything in that compartment out away from the amps and leave the hatch open, but the heat just builds. I'm a little shocked yours is shutting down, same with mine do to the added fans and the amp being open all the way around.

I've talked with Brian a bit, before as well as after, and we agreed that I would be a tester so to speak for the Hybrid setup and the Texas heat. For my situation, it looks like I may be diving off into another 800.4 to help cut the Harpoon some slack. First, I am going to add another fan either behind my rack blowing onto the rear of the harpoon, or add one on the front side on the opposite corner of the existing to blow the hot air back out the front of the open hatch, so it circulates a little better. From what I see so far, the Texas heat you an I deal with is going to be a monster for us. I've even contemplated some vents in the walkway that let more fresh air into the back side of the rack, with a fan pulling air in through one.

Unlike you though, I played for about 2 hours the other day at about half volume (which is very loud) before I had a heat issue. After the first shut down, it happened 2 more times, about an hour apart. When it's playing, it sounds amazing, lol. It has only happened that one day, where it did it those 3 times so far, but I'd like to do something to eliminate it if possible.

[Brianinpdx]

RD- give me a call at the office. Let's do some trouble shooting. Various things can do this. Harpoon should do very well i'n that environment.

Brian
971-645-3145

[E4NASH]

...I just live with it and prop open my observers seat and take it easy on the hot days.

That is the same solution I have come to with my Kicker ZXM700.5. Kinda embarassing when you are rocking out and like 4 or 5 boats or listening to your system and it goes into protect and everything stops...One time I used the inflater that we use for the tube to blow air on it until it cooled down enough that it would come back on...fun times!

[bzubke1]

If you're chillin in the water you could pull the bow seat on that side and open the compartment door just to get some airflow through there. It's been so hot this summer somewhere close to a month straight with above 100 temps.

[morgan040]

I have had this happen numerous times, We tend to play our amps to the maximum causing them to get hot. I ended up buying an amp that I can still get enough power out of, at 4 ohms instead of 2. It can run at 2 ohms (more power) but just gets even hotter. Now that my resistance is at 4 ohms I never have them get hot at all and never shut off!!

Dont push your amps to the max, or they will overheat in that cubby.

[KG's Supra24]

If those of you in the south are worried about the heat shutting down the amps, a couple of the JL lines have "rollback protection". It lowers the peak voltage when it gets to overheating temperatures in order to prevent complete shut off. I copied this from their website ...

"Should a G-Series amplifier ever overheat, its intelligent, unregulated power supply reacts by limiting available peak voltage until the amplifier returns to a safe temperature range. Likewise, if an impedance lower than optimal for the amplifier is present at the outputs, the G-Series amplifier will roll back peak voltage to protect itself without shutting down.

Benefit: The music just keeps on playing."

[EarmarkMarine]

I can only speak for Texas and our 12 years of having a dedicated marine division. Regardless of brand, a 1.33 ohm load isn't going to cut it here during July and August because its possible for the port locker to reach 140 degrees, and black gelcoat (if you have it) isn't doing you any favors. Add to that the fact that a Class AB can generate four times the heat at a similar current draw and you have decreased the lower efficiency further as you have dropped the impedance. You can fan cool the ampifier to death but its still generating an inordinate amount of heat at its core and that is unhealthy. Its kind of like treating high blood pressure with medication so that you still eat the wrong foods and never exercise. Sorry, but its wrong to only treat the symtom and not the root cause. If you have a 'hybrid' in Texas you better split it up into two amplifiers. Also, keep in mind that efficiency affects voltage and low voltage compounds thermal issues. So if you want to play big you better have serious battery reserves, a REAL shore charger and possibly an upgrade alternator.
As for the HD600/4, early production models were a little sensitive to the remote turn-on voltage falling off which happens out on the lake. JL Audio has a revision for this. Also, because its strictly regulated it pulls more current to offset a decline in voltage so that the output power doesn't drop. An unregulated amplifier will stay on longer and just produce less and less power as the voltage drops where as a strictly regulated amplifier must have a more aggressive protection circuit and will shut down at a higher voltage threshold.

David
Earmark Marine

[dusty2221]

No to highjack, but your description is pretty much spot on with my build and experience thus far with the system so far David. As far as my Exile Hybrid, I think another 800.4 is in the works to split the load from the Harpoon. Not to mention, my battery bank is now up to 345 a/h dedicated stereo with 2 quality shore chargers to charge the 4 total batteries. I will be running like this through the summer and plan on either a dbelectrical H/O alternator, or seeing what I can have my factory built to and still have it reliable. I'm all about fixing the problem at the source, and hopefully am taking the right steps!

I would imagine up in the Northern parts of the country, these Hybrid setups can run all day without issue, as my issues didn't start until the 100 degree days. Unfortunately, in Texas, once they are here, they stay, and I want to make everything as efficient as possible because I have absolutely loved all my equipment. Before the Texas heat set in, I had played two or three different occasions at the same level for 4+ hours with zero issues.

You are exactly right about the temperature in the compartment when playing extended times at a high volume. We actually talked about bringing a dual thermometer to watch the temp inside the cubby compared to outside just for fun.

[EarmarkMarine]

Do you really need a thermometer when you open up the observer's seat and it singes your eyebrows and eyelashes? Just kidding, but you can usually feel the blast furnace when you intially open up the cushion. Its really the same as a black BMW with a solid rear bulkhead so that the trunk-mounted amplifiers get no relief from the cabin AC. Its often a major difference with a hatchback or SUV.

David
Earmark Marine

[dusty2221]

We leave the hatch open, which makes the thermometer test that much more fun...to see how much the heat affects it even while open!

[KG's Supra24]

We leave the hatch open, which makes the thermometer test that much more fun...to see how much the heat affects it even while open!

I like to leave your moms hatch open

[WaterBullDawg1980]

I like to leave your moms hatch open

LMAO!

I'm not even sure what this means, but it sounds absolutely filthy and made me spit a little Pepsi Max on my keyboard.

[newty]

I like to leave your moms hatch open


Funny, but wrong on so many levels. Btw can one get electricuted by shorting a wireless keeboard from the spray of coffee?:p

KG that made my day!:D

[dusty2221]

Lol. You got me there bud.

[E4NASH]

I like to leave your moms hatch open

LMAO! NICE!

[rdlangston13]

David, so basically by not having enough battery juice to my amps it can actually cause them to overheat easier? I went to west marine today and one of the employees there suggested blower motor fans due to the large amount of air they can move to help keep things cool. This winter I plan to go to two optima blue tops for the stereo power and prosport 20 to keep them charged but dont have the funds currently. Never really had this problem till this weekend. My harpoon cut off once before but I think we were pounding it pretty hard that day. We were at canyon lake a few weeks ago and I'm not sure how hot it was, probably upper 90s and we jammed in party cove and never had an issue. I know it was like 99-102 this last Sunday and the water we were in was considerably warmer than canyon lakes water. Maybe that can also have an effect

[EarmarkMarine]

rd,
Yes, low voltage will compound thermal issues. It appears that you are running the Harpoon at 2-ohms so I suspect low voltage as a contributing factor. At 1.33 ohms on a 'hybrid' I would be far more concerned about thermal issues, particularly in the South.
A blower fan? Do you realize how noisy those fans are. Not a good option.
After the amp shuts down and has just enough time to recover, measure the voltage at the primary supply terminals of the amplifier with a digital multimeter as it repeats a shutdown. This way you will know for sure if low voltage is a major contributor. No use in chasing the wrong prognosis.
There are two parts to effective fan cooling. First, elevate the amplifier with standoffs and use a fan shroud in conjunction with a fan. Circulating the air around the fan rather than across the maximum heatsink surface area is a waste of a good fan. Second, exchanging the port locker air with the outside which may be 35 to 40 degrees cooler. This requires an exhaust fan and vent in the exterior locker. You can place a second and intake vent in the floor hump right next to the bilge hose and take advantage of the built-in provisions.
The right fans will be whisper quiet.

David
Earmark Marine

[rdlangston13]

rd,
Yes, low voltage will compound thermal issues. It appears that you are running the Harpoon at 2-ohms so I suspect low voltage as a contributing factor. At 1.33 ohms on a 'hybrid' I would be far more concerned about thermal issues, particularly in the South.
A blower fan? Do you realize how noisy those fans are. Not a good option.
After the amp shuts down and has just enough time to recover, measure the voltage at the primary supply terminals of the amplifier with a digital multimeter as it repeats a shutdown. This way you will know for sure if low voltage is a major contributor. No use in chasing the wrong prognosis.
There are two parts to effective fan cooling. First, elevate the amplifier with standoffs and use a fan shroud in conjunction with a fan. Circulating the air around the fan rather than across the maximum heatsink surface area is a waste of a good fan. Second, exchanging the port locker air with the outside which may be 35 to 40 degrees cooler. This requires an exhaust fan and vent in the exterior locker. You can place a second and intake vent in the floor hump right next to the bilge hose and take advantage of the built-in provisions.
The right fans will be whisper quiet.

David
Earmark Marine

my amps are elevated off of the amp boards by 1/2 or 3/4 inches. not sure how big the hdpe i bought was. the noise of the fans does not concern me so much since the volume of the music should drown out the fan noise. my harpoon is running two sets of sxt86s in parrallel with 16 gauge wire. i will probably just go out this weekend and leave the locked open and see what kind of effect that has. my plan with the fans was just and intake and exhaust fan to move fresh outside air into the locker and suck the hot locker air out

[EarmarkMarine]

How would a push and pull fan move a higher volume of air versus a single fan if their is no appreciable resistance?

David
Earmark Marine

[rdlangston13]

I don't reckon it would. I figure one fan will work fine.

[viking]

As for the HD600/4, early production models were a little sensitive to the remote turn-on voltage falling off which happens out on the lake. JL Audio has a revision for this. Also, because its strictly regulated it pulls more current to offset a decline in voltage so that the output power doesn't drop. An unregulated amplifier will stay on longer and just produce less and less power as the voltage drops where as a strictly regulated amplifier must have a more aggressive protection circuit and will shut down at a higher voltage threshold.

David
Earmark Marine

David,
I purchased my JL's soon after they came out. How would I go about getting the "revision" as you state? Did they fix the issue in later models and i'm out of luck? I can take this to email or pm's............
Thanks

[EarmarkMarine]

Viking,
Just get with your supplier and give them the serial number from your amplifier. They can tell you whether its an issue on your particular model or not.
In any case if that amplifier is shutting down in an application where it shouldn't I would send it in after the season for a full check up.
The JL Audio HD amplifiers run full diagnostics within the first second or two after turn-on and adjust the rail voltage of the front and rear channels independently based on the respective impedance load. You won't find a more sophisticated amplifier. So if its shutting down it would take a low voltage threshold, whether on the remote turn on circuit or on the supply, or a damaged speaker voice coil that is changing its value after heating up. Thermal is unlikely since it accounts for an inordinate load in its initial power up process. And that takes me back to a factory set threshold that may need to be checked and revised. JL Audio did send out a memo on the turn on threshold for an HD model. No guarantees but it seems like a possible fit.

David
Earmark Marine

[New Guy]

Hey guys how about a ice pack held to the amps that should help :p

In all seriousness I have done that in a pinch with a towel rapped around it to absorb water and it has helped.

[EarmarkMarine]

No joke. Building a bladder into an amplifier shroud would not be terribly difficult. Its been done many times before. But again, you are still generating too much heat at the core if you need to go to that extreme and it will eventually take a toll on the amplifier.
You can purposely design a system from the beginning that will absolutely NOT thermal anywhere in North America.

David
Earmark Marine

[viking]

Viking,
Just get with your supplier and give them the serial number from your amplifier. They can tell you whether its an issue on your particular model or not.
In any case if that amplifier is shutting down in an application where it shouldn't I would send it in after the season for a full check up.
The JL Audio HD amplifiers run full diagnostics within the first second or two after turn-on and adjust the rail voltage of the front and rear channels independently based on the respective impedance load. You won't find a more sophisticated amplifier. So if its shutting down it would take a low voltage threshold, whether on the remote turn on circuit or on the supply, or a damaged speaker voice coil that is changing its value after heating up. Thermal is unlikely since it accounts for an inordinate load in its initial power up process. And that takes me back to a factory set threshold that may need to be checked and revised. JL Audio did send out a memo on the turn on threshold for an HD model. No guarantees but it seems like a possible fit.

David
Earmark Marine

Thanks Much!

[rdlangston13]

So we went out today and the amps got way hot. Like you could not keep your hand on it. A buddy with ne touched and said his amps never get near that hot. Band of course they were cutting off. This was while riding, not parked. Voltage was around 14.5. And we would just jam while riiding and shut it down after someone falls and they still got stupid hot. Batteries????

[bhowell]

So we went out today and the amps got way hot. Like you could not keep your hand on it. A buddy with ne touched and said his amps never get near that hot. Band of course they were cutting off. This was while riding, not parked. Voltage was around 14.5. And we would just jam while riiding and shut it down after someone falls and they still got stupid hot. Batteries????

I doubt its batteries. I have 3 Blue Tops (at Travis/Jame's recommendation but I don't think they are worth it) and my Harpoon has overheated too. I think it's the heat.

[cab13367]

So we went out today and the amps got way hot. Like you could not keep your hand on it. A buddy with ne touched and said his amps never get near that hot. Band of course they were cutting off. This was while riding, not parked. Voltage was around 14.5. And we would just jam while riiding and shut it down after someone falls and they still got stupid hot. Batteries????

Earlier this summer, my son surfed for one hour straight behind my boat and i had my stereo cranked the whole time. I checked on my amps a couple of
times and the Harpoon was just warm, not hot. My sub amp, the 600.1 was hotter than the Harpoon. The stereo played just fine the whole time - never shut off. Air temp was only in the 70's.

[rdlangston13]

brett, how long do you play before if cuts off? i can only get in maybe 1 half hour before it starts shutting down and all three amps do it. i even turn the stereo off between riders or when someone falls and it still does it. i do not think this is normal and i am kind of embarrassed when my buddy with a kicker amp with half the power of the harpoon and a fraction of the cost can out play me all day

also this was never an issue until last weekend. and this weekend it was not even that hot out, in fact it was cloudy all weekend

[cab13367]

I'm thinking this is a battery issue. How many batteries do you have? Do you have an ACR or VSR? Do you have a shore charger and if so which one? How often do your charge your batteries?

[Brianinpdx]

RD - I was away from the phone this weekend.I think I saw a text from you on there this evening. I'll reach out to you in the morning. Lets go over the tech list I gave you to look at over the weekend.

-Brian

[kayjayfech]

I would definitely consider purchasing the fan or even new amps with the internal cooling fan. Taking the seat out definitely works for air flow.

[rdlangston13]

Brian, phone went for a swim yesterday. I'll call you as soon as I get a new one.

For the record, no arc or vsr. 2 batteries, one starting which I ave known is going bad and one accessory/stereo. No shore charger.

[skylar18]

I've been lucky so far this year, even though it seems like it is 105 every day, my amp (arc ks900.6) hasn't shut down yet. Must not be playing it loud enough.....

[bhowell]

brett, how long do you play before if cuts off? i can only get in maybe 1 half hour before it starts shutting down and all three amps do it. i even turn the stereo off between riders or when someone falls and it still does it. i do not think this is normal and i am kind of embarrassed when my buddy with a kicker amp with half the power of the harpoon and a fraction of the cost can out play me all day

Not sure how long but I would estimate 2 hours of continuous play (beached) at 90% of max volume with it around 100 degrees to get the Harpoon to go into protect mode. The 800.4 and the 1500.1 haven't overheated yet. Also none of the amps are set to set to max capacity (probably 80%).

[rdlangston13]

Not sure how long but I would estimate 2 hours of continuous play (beached) at 90% of max volume with it around 100 degrees to get the Harpoon to go into protect mode. The 800.4 and the 1500.1 haven't overheated yet. Also none of the amps are set to set to max capacity (probably 80%).

ok so mine at about 50% volume cut off in about half an hour of non continuous play. and they all three do it, the harpoom, the 800.4, and the 600.1. never happened until last weekend.

[mmandley]

There's got to be something in your wireing or settings because even last year at 104 I was pounding mine all day never an issue. I'd have to say if all three are shutting down it's the deck over heating not your amps. The 800 isn't een starting to work just pushing cabins my 800 isn't even at 50% gain and it can over power my exile cabins.

Running the Hybrid tower it takes about 4 hours to overheat the Poon but if I just mute the tower when someone falls or when not pulling people I never have an issue. Also my cubby is full of back packs and towels so very little free air

[matt75]

I'm running a memphis 1100 watt at 1Ohm to a kicker solobaric 12 and then a kicker 500.4 to the 6500.2 tower setup. Kcker cabins and a 4 channel/80w. I felt Davids amps and they were so damn hot you couldn't keep your hand on them for more than a second. I don't crack the cushions or open the port locker and mine don't get near that temp. I'm running the 2 battery setup with perko, 4 gauge main to memphis distribution block, 4gauge power and ground to all 3 amps.

[bhowell]

I'm running a memphis 1100 watt at 1Ohm to a kicker solobaric 12 and then a kicker 500.4 to the 6500.2 tower setup. Kcker cabins and a 4 channel/80w. I felt Davids amps and they were so damn hot you couldn't keep your hand on them for more than a second. I don't crack the cushions or open the port locker and mine don't get near that temp. I'm running the 2 battery setup with perko, 4 gauge main to memphis distribution block, 4gauge power and ground to all 3 amps.

My amps are very hot to the touch as well. Definitely, can't keep my hand on them.

[rdlangston13]

There's got to be something in your wireing or settings because even last year at 104 I was pounding mine all day never an issue. I'd have to say if all three are shutting down it's the deck over heating not your amps. The 800 isn't een starting to work just pushing cabins my 800 isn't even at 50% gain and it can over power my exile cabins.

Running the Hybrid tower it takes about 4 hours to overheat the Poon but if I just mute the tower when someone falls or when not pulling people I never have an issue. Also my cubby is full of back packs and towels so very little free air

i never use my "deck" so i dont think that is the issue. plus the amps dont just all turn off at once, one will shut down, then 5-10 min later another, then another. nothing in my wiring has changed over the last two weeks.

[cab13367]

For the record, no arc or vsr. 2 batteries, one starting which I ave known is going bad and one accessory/stereo. No shore charger.

I think the battery is the issue. You've got three pretty big amps running off one battery that never gets shore charged, so the only charge it gets is from the alternator. The stock alternator does not have enough output to replenish what your amps are drawing from your battery especially if you are also running the stereo with the engine off. So every time you go out, your stereo battery is getting more and more drained.

So I think your amps are shutting down because they are not getting enough voltage which I think is also causing them to get hot.

I am sure the experts will chime in but I think this is the problem.

I have the same amps as you except I have a JL M6600 instead of the Exile 800.4. I have two stereo batteries rated 125AH each and a ProMariner 20 amp charger and charge my batteries after every use and my amps never shut down or get unusually hot. I know that not everyone has 120V AC available where they store their boat - I am fortunate enough to be able to store mine in my garage.

Al

[rdlangston13]

This is what I am thinking as well. I think I am going to go with two blue tops and a yellow top along with a pro20 shore charger but I want to make sure this will fix my problem before I spend a grand on all this.

[dusty2221]

Save yourself some coin, go to Costco, they have group 27 Batteries with a 115 a/h rating. I'm running 3 of them with my system + a separate crank battery.

[cab13367]

Save yourself some coin, go to Costco, they have group 27 Batteries with a 115 a/h rating. I'm running 3 of them with my system + a separate crank battery.

+1! I went with two Group 29 marine deep cycles from Walmart for my stereo bank, 125 AH, $85 each.

[bhowell]

This is what I am thinking as well. I think I am going to go with two blue tops and a yellow top along with a pro20 shore charger but I want to make sure this will fix my problem before I spend a grand on all this.

I agree with the other comments about not spending the extra coin on Blue Tops. I have 3 in my stereo bank and I'm not sure it was worth it. I do recommend the Pro20 charger.

[rdlangston13]

what are the different groups of batteries?

[MLA]

what are the different groups of batteries?

"Group" is battery speaker for size. Basically like a trade # on an automotive light bulb.

[rsinger]

Now I've heard everything. A boat that has got to be plugged in when it's out of the water.:rolleyes:

You folks are running some pretty nasty systems.

Pretty soon these boats will come with a separate generator to keep the sound system batteries charged.

[EarmarkMarine]

^^^ Actually using a gen is very common on pontoons and other boats that only feature stators on their outboard motors. Also, its not a bad idea for long weekend camping trips where AC power is unavailable. So its one more thing to add to your boating list!

David
Earmark Marine

[cab13367]

what are the different groups of batteries?

The larger the #, the larger the physical size of the battery and the larger it's electrical capacity, in general.

[rdlangston13]

The larger the #, the larger the physical size of the battery and the larger it's electrical capacity, in general.

So what is the best bang for my buck battery wise? I want to go with 2 stereo batteries and 1 starting battery. I know the optimas are good but i hear i can get something just as good for a fraction of the cost. What would that be? I want something maintenance free.

[bbuhtz]

+1! I went with two Group 29 marine deep cycles from Walmart for my stereo bank, 125 AH, $85 each.

I also have 3 of these Group 29 marine deep cycles from wally world and they perform fine. Save the money for an ACR and a pro20 charger, well worth it.

[EarmarkMarine]

Battery sizing can be a little confusing because the numbering system isn't entirely sequential.
Group 34. Common to compact racing batteries and AGMs like an Optima. Similar to a group 24 but not as tall.
Group 24. A standard size for starting and marine batteries. Stock in most towboats.
Group 27. Larger dimensions and capacity over a group 24. Requires a larger 27 case/lid or tray/bracket.
Group 29. For all purposes this is the equivalent of a group 31.
Group 31. Larger dimensions and capacity over a group 27 and will often fit in a group 27 case or bracket.
Its really simple but usually as the battery becomes heavier and larger the battery has more reserve capacity. You could almost skip the amp/hour rating and go purely by the weight.

David
Earmark Marine

[rdlangston13]

So David, what battery set up do you recommend for my system?

[EarmarkMarine]

rd,
Best bang for the buck is going to be a wet/flooded battery and you will really only have to check fluids three to four times a year if you are charging them correctly. AGMs will not provide greater amp/hour capacity for the size and weight and certainly cost more but have numerous other and valuable advantages. We have had zero problems with Optimas and have boat owners running the same batteries for five seasons...but they are disciplined in their battery care. Deka makes a premier AGM and will provide a little more capacity.
In general, a deep cycle will have no trouble turning over a small block in warm weather. So I like a deep cycle battery for the starting side also since there is a certain amount of leveling that takes place after a long play at rest. With repetition this is unhealthy for a standard cranking type battery.
So a single group 34 or 24 for the starting. For the stereo battery bank you need to match up your anticipated play time and how hard you play the system with your total system power and amplifier efficiency. A single group 27, 29 or 31 would be minimum while dual 29s or 31s should be maximum. Remember that the larger your battery capacity is the more dependent on AC shore charging you will become to maintain healthy batteries. And you've got to have the right charger capacity to match up with your collective amp/hours. With all the stereo and battery investment, don't go cheap on a minder/tender/maintenance/trickle charger. Making the right choice here is just as essential.

David
Earmark Marine

[Razzman]

After talking with David on batteries I went with a single Deka 31 agm battery for my system. I don't blast music long periods nor do we float forever either. So far up to 95 degrees with three Exile amps without issues. Stayed with a standard group 24 for the cranking battery. When off the lake they are maintained by a ProMariner ProSport 20.

[rdlangston13]

Ok I am thinking 2 group 29 batteries for the stereo since we do park at the island and jam sometimes and maybe a group 24 deep cycle for starting. Now are the Deka AGM batteries more or less than the Optima? And I may do one optima stereo battery now and another in a few months.

[bbuhtz]

Ok I am thinking 2 group 29 batteries for the stereo since we do park at the island and jam sometimes and maybe a group 24 deep cycle for starting. Now are the Deka AGM batteries more or less than the Optima? And I may do one optima stereo battery now and another in a few months.

I would recommend trying to get all of your batteries in the future all the same type, as the Prosport20 Charger (if you are getting one in the future) are designed to charge batteries of same type (Flooded(lead-acid)/STD AGM, GEL & High Performance(HP) AGM) if that makes sense, I'm not talking about "groups" as types... but what do I know, lol

It sounds like you are, but I just wanted to throw that out there.

[EarmarkMarine]

I would agree that all batteries should be the same chemistry whether wet or AGM. Some of the more expensive chargers, like Xantrex for example, provide for independent profiles per bank. Its certainly less critical relating to your alternator since there is going to be a large inequity between the two banks regardless. Its just an inherent flaw in boat dual bank charging systems you cannot get around unless you have dual alternators.
But, once you parallel two or more batteries for your stereo bank that are always used and charged the same, all batteries should be identical in size, type and in particular their age. With battery usage the internal resistance will change. Mixing different ages will create over/under charging which is hard on the longevity of all the batteries within that bank, old and new. So, do your best to set your plan in the beginning and stick with it. There are worse things that you can do but try and avoid adding additional batteries to an aged bank.
Also, having extra capacity means that you are not cycling your batteries as deeply. Although deep cycle batteries are meant for this you can get an inordinate number of shallower cycles out of a battery versus a comparatively fewer deeper cycles. Its not an equitable ratio. So having extra capacity will significantly extend battery longevity.

David
Earmark Marine

[Razzman]

For what it's worth I called ProMariner before purchasing the ProSport and they did tell me it's perfectly fine to run an agm and lead acid together as the the standard profile supports both those types. And as the only time they should be combined is in an emergency start situation there's no issue running two types. IF you have your isolation done correctly that is.

[rdlangston13]

For what it's worth I called ProMariner before purchasing the ProSport and they did tell me it's perfectly fine to run an agm and lead acid together as the the standard profile supports both those types. And as the only time they should be combined is in an emergency start situation there's no issue running two types. IF you have your isolation done correctly that is.

razz, how much did the deka agm set you back? more or less than an optima blue top/

[Razzman]

razz, how much did the deka agm set you back? more or less than an optima blue top/

I got it local for $160

[DOCDRS]

Not sure what you guys are runnin but my kicker 750mx and 500ix were blasting all day long and for fun I took my voltmeter to the boat a good 15 mins after stopped and both batts were at 13.05 volts. If I played any louder I was afraid someone was going to call the OPP on me. Interstate batts only. I'm liking the class D ix :). Plus it was 100degrees today and no shut downs or overheatys

[bbuhtz]

Not sure what you guys are runnin but my kicker 750mx and 500ix were blasting all day long and for fun I took my voltmeter to the boat a good 15 mins after stopped and both batts were at 13.05 volts. If I played any louder I was afraid someone was going to call the OPP on me. Interstate batts only. I'm liking the class D ix :). Plus it was 100degrees today and no shut downs or overheatys

What are you running with your ix500?

[DOCDRS]

Kicker HLCD tower speakers with a. WS420 and a H S E revolution

[rdlangston13]

a legit 100 degrees or 100 heat index?

[DOCDRS]

100 external. 86 lake. Temps as registered on my seadoo and the 86 confirmed on boat lake temp

[EarmarkMarine]

Here in the DFW area, as of today, we have had over 20 days straight of 100 degree plus temperatures. We have yet to have a boat owner call or bring his boat by with thermal shutdown issues where we installed Class D amplifiers.

David
Earmark Marine

[rdlangston13]

Here in the DFW area, as of today, we have had over 20 days straight of 100 degree plus temperatures. We have yet to have a boat owner call or bring his boat by with thermal shutdown issues where we installed Class D amplifiers.

David
Earmark Marine

so can low battery power cause the amps to over heat even if the voltage is ok due to the alternator charging?

[EarmarkMarine]

rd,
Low voltage is hard on all electronics including boat electronics, starters, etc.
Let's look at a particular scenerio...
You've been at rest and run two group 29 or 31s down to 10.5 volts (considered empty) and the audio system shuts down due to low voltage. So you start up the boat which has a 90 amp alternator (pretty good size) and are running at a moderate rpm. The alternator is only rated and intended to deliver its full rated output while at high rpms and for short durations. So you're not getting the full 90 amps. The boat operations, ignition etc, take 15 to 20 amps without any DC lighting or accessories. You are continuing to play your stereo at half power which is drawing 67 amps. The two depleted stereo batteries are discharged and a serious liability rather than an asset to your charging system at this point, thus are pulling 25 amps each initially until they get a charge. Collectively we have a 137 potential total amperage draw from an alternator that is realistically putting out 70 amps under the present conditions. Since the total draw is exceeding the alternator capacity, right now we are pulling down the starting battery as it levels with the stereo bank since the battery switch is in the 'Both' position. If its an ACR there is no way its combining under these conditions and the stereo bank is off-line entirely from the alternator. In either case you won't begin to charge the stereo bank until you shut down the stereo. As the current draw increases a voltage drop is simultaneous. If your reserves are depleted then the issue is greatly compounded. Its unavoidable. Something else to consider is, if the voltage is down to just 12.5 volts you may have lost up to 20 percent of your amplifier rated output power with a continued loss of power as voltage drops farther. By the time the system shuts down due to low voltage your amplifiers are generating just a fraction of their rated power.
You can upgrade your alternator. Past 120 amps you are going to have to get away from the conventional V belts and pulleys which is very expensive. Really large alternators when under serious load also impact HP and may even be noticeable.
While this is an extreme scenerio for some its the norm for others and even more complex for those with systems twice the size.
First, battery reserves are important.
Second, get a serious AC shore charger rather than a trickle/tender/minder variety.
Third, give the stereo a rest sometimes so the charging system can catch its breath so to speak and has the opportunity to charge the batteries after a long period at rest.
Fourth, the above issues are why I so strongly recommend designing an audio system from the beginning for maximum efficiency including sub, sub enclosure, tuning and especially amplifier efficiency. Increased efficiency will go a long way towards eliminating thermal problems also.

David
Earmark Marine

[rdlangston13]

ok new batteries installed. Two interstate SRM-29s for the stereo and one interstae group 24 marine cranking for starting. Also now have a permantently mounted prosport 20 plus. the first test of the new set up will be this weekend on lake belton. lets hope the amps will play for more than a half hour!

question on adding water to batteries, do you fill them till they over flow or what?

[Razzman]

ok new batteries installed. Two interstate SRM-29s for the stereo and one interstae group 24 marine cranking for starting. Also now have a permantently mounted prosport 20 plus. the first test of the new set up will be this weekend on lake belton. lets hope the amps will play for more than a half hour!

question on adding water to batteries, do you fill them till they over flow or what?

I always fill mine to the bottom of the top plate

[EarmarkMarine]

Fill to a level that is above the top of the plates.
Never, ever overfill and spill. You are releasing important chemicals from the battery that are needed and also the chemicals happen to be very destructive when exterior to the battery.
Only use distilled water and never tap water.
Check 3 to 4 times per season. When you are adding moderate amounts of water more than several times per year that is an indication of over-charging or failing batteries and it would be time for a load test.

David
Earmark Marine

[rdlangston13]

thanks, i saw a little battery watering kit at bass pro that fits on top of the battery, looks like it is supposed to make filling them easier. any thoughts on products like these?

[rdlangston13]

Went to the lake this weekend and th stereo performed flawlessly. We never really party coved at all but we did use the harpoon at a low to moderate volume for hours. Very pleased so far

[dusty2221]

Good deal man. We were in the area this weekend, wish we could have made it out to Belton to ride with you guys.

[rdlangston13]

Harpoon cut off yesterday and when I touched it I think I almost burnt my hand. Charged all the batteries over night and went out again today and it cut off again. Fml

[EarmarkMarine]

With no more than two pair of surf speakers on a Harpoon something else has to be going on here.
If you are trying to drive surf speakers extra hard at wake range then I wouldn't be surprised.
Make sure that the DCR of all four tower speakers are nearly identical. Since you have 'Q's remove just one at a time to see if the amplifier doesn't start running much cooler. This would indicate partial damage in that speaker which can create an inordinate load.

David
Earmark Marine

[rdlangston13]

Can't you just check resistance across the speaker to see if it is damaged? I never run more than 75% volume. I have butt connector in my speaker wire half way up the tower, could those be adding resistance causing the problem? Should I run 12 or 14 gauge wire here instead of 16?

[rdlangston13]

Also the ambient air temp was about 100-104 degrees. The
Volume according to my ws420 was between the half marker and the next marker up. we turn it about right there when we pull someone and then cut it off when the fall. The cabins and sub were doing this before the battery changes but we never really took them past half volume this weekend and we never had a problem

[EarmarkMarine]

Yes, you can check the DCR for consistency (+ or - .1 ohm is fine) between speakers but if there is an issue with a tweeter then it will not show up since it has a series capacitor in the highpass section of the passive crossover network that will not pass DC.
A butt connector absolutely creates resistance which is why we solder and heatshrink everything. In fact if you have a butt connector on a 15 amp halogen light supply harness it will get hot enough to burn you.
For the kind of power you are running 14/4 is par for four surf speakers and 12/4 is the norm for four HLCDs. 16/4 is light although its doubtful that either of these issues are the actual cause for your thermal failure.
The relationship between a volume control and output power is not a linear equation. If a volume attenuator works in 1.5 dB increments then cutting back two clicks is half power. Cutting back six clicks would be one/tenth power. So I'm not sure what you mean by,"75 percent".
You could email me. Maybe we'll set up a phone conversation. We'll start from the beginning. I need to verify a number of conditions. [email protected]

David
Earmark Marine

[rdlangston13]

75% just means the knob was turned 75% of it's total travel.

[DOCDRS]

The other night I ran my hlcds at max, was rocking on the way home from dinner, at 37mph ,it was dark , so no one could see my regs # , my bad, for 1 hour on my class D and when I check the voltage on my batts the next morning they were at 12.78 volts.....very happy ,btw the sound was awesome

[tgoody14]

THREAD REVIVAL!!!!!

Sooo what was the solution!?

I'm having the same problem. I'm running 2 Kicker 700.5s (1) to the Exile cabins and sub (1) to the Exile towers

It's 100 degrees out. Amps are both smokin HAWT to touch, go into protection mode, 5min break and back to business.

I have 2 batteries with perko switch that are possibly needing to be replaced, but don't wanna go that route just yet if you guys figured out it was a separate problem...

[MLA]

THREAD REVIVAL!!!!!

Sooo what was the solution!?

I'm having the same problem. I'm running 2 Kicker 700.5s (1) to the Exile cabins and sub (1) to the Exile towers

It's 100 degrees out. Amps are both smokin HAWT to touch, go into protection mode, 5min break and back to business.

I have 2 batteries with perko switch that are possibly needing to be replaced, but don't wanna go that route just yet if you guys figured out it was a separate problem...

Amps can and will be hot to the touch, but that in itself doesnt mean they are going into protect mode due to their internal temp. You have 2 identical amp, but both may be used differently. Are they both going into protect mode at the same time? If so, I would look into something other then heat, like battery voltage. Is this a problem with the engine running or while at anchor or both? What gauge amp cabling is used for both amps?

How many speakers is each amp driving? Is the sub a 2 or 4 ohm load at the amp? Are the amps bolted directly to a carpeted wall?

[tgoody14]

Amps can and will be hot to the touch, but that in itself doesnt mean they are going into protect mode due to their internal temp. You have 2 identical amp, but both may be used differently. Are they both going into protect mode at the same time? If so, I would look into something other then heat, like battery voltage. Is this a problem with the engine running or while at anchor or both? What gauge amp cabling is used for both amps?

How many speakers is each amp driving? Is the sub a 2 or 4 ohm load at the amp? Are the amps bolted directly to a carpeted wall?

Amp 1 powers 6 cabins and 1 factory kicker 10" (I don't know ohm) Gain is set at around 80% 6ga wires
Amp 2 powers 2 XM9s. Gain is set at around 80% 2ga wires (honestly, I could prolly not jam out as hard as I do on the towers to help this amp :/)
Both amps are sitting directly on carpeted amp rack. (Should've thought about adding spacers, but didn't *banging head)
It happens parked and while surfing. Not real often and only if we crank it super loud during a song and forget to turn it back down. They are going into "Protection" (as the little red light is on). I haven't had them both shut off at the same time tho, it's usually just one or the other. Then I just turn those speakers all the way down, leaving the others still going and after about one song the other speakers are back to normal.

It's not a SERIOUS problem since its not like every 20mins but it is frustrating for sure and if its a simple fix that I can handle myself then I will attempt it, but if it requires pulling everything back out then I will just live with it til the end of season. I'm bout spent out on Mods already this year and just ready to enjoy the water!!!

Thanks for the reply, good sir

[tgoody14]

17541
If this helps any....

Also, I'm already in the process of setting up a 6" fan in there to help with air flow

[tgoody14]

One more question... With the gains set up at about 80% of 100 I'm only having to turn my volume knobs to halfway and it's PLENTY loud. Would it help the amps from overheating if I turned the gains down?
Because obviously its pushing more than enough, but I don't know if it would help any I guess is my question...

[MLA]

T,

6ga gauge cabling if fine since the batteries are close
Your OEM 10 is probably a 4 ohm, so thats good. We have run that same amp with 6 speakers and a 2 ohm sub on a number of times over the years.
I would install some stand-offs and get them off the carpet. This allows for some air flow behind them. Adding a fan does little unless you are actually cycling the air in the locker. Blowing the same hot air across them will do nothing. The ideal solution is to get fresh cool air across the amps and the hot air out of the locker. This takes 2 fans, some ducting and maybe a shroud. But I would go here last as in most cases we can solve this by other means.

80% gain! Start here. These need to be lowered. Even with the Typical 2V OEM head-unit line level, we rarely see these Kicker amps end up past the 11 oclock position on the gain dial. Thats just shy of 50%. This will absolutely reduce the load of the amp. Gains need to be set with the head-unit at its max pre-clip level, which will be right about 75-80% of the head-unit max level as opposed to maxing the amp gains, then only turning the head-unit up till its loud enough for you. Google "Gain setting" and fallow it. I also see that you have an EQ. If its a line driver, then your gains should be even lower....about 30%.

Both those amp need to be set to "HI-Pass". Each amp has 2 slide switches that will be labeled "X-Over-1" and "X-Over-2" with 2 positions of "OFF" and "HI". Slide them all to HI. This will also reduce the load on the amp. Next, set the cross-over frequency dial to 100Hz for both the in-boat chnls and tower chnls. again, 2 dials per amp.

[jmvotto]

T, good information

strange, when I asked for gain recommendations, I got us an volt meter or o- scope, no recommended gain range was provided must be the different brand equipment.:twisted:

rant and hijak over

[tgoody14]

Out. Standing. That's great news Thanks MLA

I run my iPod thru the Aux on my EQ and bypass the actual factory head unit.

Hopefully turning the gains down will solve this issue! I'll have to check the crossovers and see, I can't remember what I set them at...
High pass for the cabins and towers, but I'm assuming that 5th channel for the sub is a low pass by default correct?

Thanks again

[tgoody14]

T, good information

strange, when I asked for gain recommendations, I got us an volt meter or o- scope, no recommended gain range was provided must be the different brand equipment.:twisted:

rant and hijak over

LOL don't you go starting trouble here Joe!!!! 😎

[EarmarkMarine]

Stacking those amplifiers one over the top of the other is not helping the thermal issues. Rotate them from horizontal to vertical side-by-side. Space them several inches apart. Space them off the panel by half an inch. No EQ or bass boost if you want maximum volume. Set the gains and crossovers correctly. Then you may not need a fan.
If you add a fan the largest issue is using a fan shroud which multiplies the fan's effectiveness many times. A raw fan just hovering over the amplifier has limited benefit.
A second fan exchanging air with the bilge will multiply the contribution of the amplifier fan....if needed.

David

[tgoody14]

David,
My plan with the fans were to basically create an airflow from the bow, through the compartment with the hatch open. Basically, just to help circulate the hotter air out (simple fix to help is all)
I leave bass boost completely off. I saw your post on another thread on this topic!
As for the spacers off the amp board, I'm hoping I can wait that out til the off season if the gain issue solves my problem!
Thanks for the reply!

[bzubke1]

Is spacing the amps .5"-1" off a carpeted amp rack going to yield a significant improvement in airflow?

[MLA]

T, good information

strange, when I asked for gain recommendations, I got us an volt meter or o- scope, no recommended gain range was provided must be the different brand equipment.:twisted:

rant and hijak over

Joe,

if you reread your thread, you will see that you also received the same basic info. You were offered sound advice to set the gains properly as opposed to mimicking the exact settings of someone else with a similar setup. Although this may have put the gains in a safe range, but then again, you may have taken the settings from someone with theirs set to oh lets say...80% of max. So we would then be addressing a gain hiss/noise issue, etc. with your system.

I did not tell T where to set his gains, nor did i give him a recommended range to set them within. I gave him some perspective of just how high his gains are set. This is based on years of experience and installing and setting up countless Kicker 700.5 amps. In the end, T, as well as you, was given the advice to set the gains using a commonly accepted method.

[MLA]

Out. Standing. That's great news Thanks MLA

I run my iPod thru the Aux on my EQ and bypass the actual factory head unit.

Hopefully turning the gains down will solve this issue! I'll have to check the crossovers and see, I can't remember what I set them at...
High pass for the cabins and towers, but I'm assuming that 5th channel for the sub is a low pass by default correct?

Thanks again

I would take the Ipod/MP3 through the head-units AUX and take advantage of the head-units 2V output to the EQ. Your headphone output is probably less then .5V.

Yes, the dedicated sub chnl on those 700.5 amps are low-pass only. So just check the 4 switches for the 8 full-range chnls.

[tgoody14]

I would take the Ipod/MP3 through the head-units AUX and take advantage of the head-units 2V output to the EQ. Your headphone output is probably less then .5V.

Yes, the dedicated sub chnl on those 700.5 amps are low-pass only. So just check the 4 switches for the 8 full-range chnls.

Awesome!!! Sounds great! And yes I have that hiss/noise in my speakers before I even turn up the volume (due to the gain being to high) thanks for that as well

I did not know the Krypt EQ aux was less than the factory headunit so I will definitely go back to using that! Thank god I ran a 20ft aux cord around the bow to the drivers side as well... Pheww 😅
Thanks again

[tgoody14]

Is spacing the amps .5"-1" off a carpeted amp rack going to yield a significant improvement in airflow?

Definitely! Orrrr well it more less allows air to pass above and below the amp helping some of the heat to get away from the Amp rather than being trapped.

I've seen it done many times and also adding computer fans one on each side of the air vents on the amp to help circulate air over the circuit boards inside the amp. I'm still kicking myself for not doing this, totally slipped my mind....

[EarmarkMarine]

T, good information

strange, when I asked for gain recommendations, I got us an volt meter or o- scope, no recommended gain range was provided must be the different brand equipment.:twisted:

rant and hijak over

I have seen the quicky tuning advice many times. At best they are very rough guidelines. And the over-simplified and abbreviated version is okay for someone who has very little tolerance for anything technical because they are not going to follow a more thorough prescription anyway. But they always have unrealized performance.
Here's the thing: With every change of head unit or source the tuning settings are different. Different with different boats and different speaker mounting provisions. Different with different speakers. Different with different amplifiers. Different on the same amplifier with different load impedances among the different channels. And so on.
It's a method and technique, even an art for the really proficient few.

David

[mmandley]

Is spacing the amps .5"-1" off a carpeted amp rack going to yield a significant improvement in airflow?

I don't know about Significant, but think about yourself.

If your hot and have to sit in the seat in your car, your back is just cooking right? Still sweating like a dog. But if you stand up or at least lean a little forward your back gets some relief of the heat. Same principle.

When i build my amp racks and place my amps, i always use 1/2 stand offs, but i also cut the centers out like this.

All the white sections behind the amps i cut out, just cant find that picture.
http://i639.photobucket.com/albums/uu114/mmandley/20130212_161507_zps519aeaf5.jpg (http://s639.photobucket.com/user/mmandley/media/20130212_161507_zps519aeaf5.jpg.html)

http://i639.photobucket.com/albums/uu114/mmandley/Stereo/Mojo%20Stereo/DSC_0950_zps60743138.jpg (http://s639.photobucket.com/user/mmandley/media/Stereo/Mojo%20Stereo/DSC_0950_zps60743138.jpg.html)

[bzubke1]

Thanks mike that makes total sense. I'm gonna try it this weekend and see what kind of improvement I see.

[tgoody14]

If your hot and have to sit in the seat in your car, your back is just cooking right? Still sweating like a dog. But if you stand up or at least lean a little forward your back gets some relief of the heat. Same principle.


Perfect Example!!!
⭐ for Mike 👏

[tgoody14]

80% gain! Start here. These need to be lowered. Even with the Typical 2V OEM head-unit line level, we rarely see these Kicker amps end up past the 11 oclock position on the gain dial. Thats just shy of 50%. This will absolutely reduce the load of the amp. Gains need to be set with the head-unit at its max pre-clip level, which will be right about 75-80% of the head-unit max level as opposed to maxing the amp gains, then only turning the head-unit up till its loud enough for you. Google "Gain setting" and fallow it. I also see that you have an EQ. If its a line driver, then your gains should be even lower....about 30%.

Both those amp need to be set to "HI-Pass". Each amp has 2 slide switches that will be labeled "X-Over-1" and "X-Over-2" with 2 positions of "OFF" and "HI". Slide them all to HI. This will also reduce the load on the amp. Next, set the cross-over frequency dial to 100Hz for both the in-boat chnls and tower chnls. again, 2 dials per amp.

Just left the boat stall and looks like I already had both amps on high pass so that's good! I was able to roll both amps back just over 50% on the gains and also I lowered the frequencies from about 150 down to 100...

Now I can crank the volume knob all the way, not saying I will cuz it was almost too much to bear... That was in a metal boat storage too tho so it may be just right once we get out on the water!

It didn't seem like I did much (physical labor), but I sure hope this fixes the overheating cuz I really don't want to pull all that stuff outta there and lift those amps! At least not til the off season!!!

Thanks again MLA! Cross your fingers for me ;)

[jmvotto]

Joe,

if you reread your thread, you will see that you also received the same basic info. You were offered sound advice to set the gains properly as opposed to mimicking the exact settings of someone else with a similar setup. Although this may have put the gains in a safe range, but then again, you may have taken the settings from someone with theirs set to oh lets say...80% of max. So we would then be addressing a gain hiss/noise issue, etc. with your system.

I did not tell T where to set his gains, nor did i give him a recommended range to set them within. I gave him some perspective of just how high his gains are set. This is based on years of experience and installing and setting up countless Kicker 700.5 amps. In the end, T, as well as you, was given the advice to set the gains using a commonly accepted method.


Mike, i agree ,you gave me solid advice on the cross over points and how to efficiently set the pre clip leaves in the other thread.

Re read this thread and 50% and 30% were recommended gains for t's system, it's pretty clear my system is the black sheep and gets no love. Lol