Boatless Trailer Towing Problem

[Shoemaker Mobius]

Help!!! Last night, for the first time since we purchased our 2004 Mobius LSV, I trailered the boat to our normal launch and let my son and his friends take the boat out by themselves. Since I don't feel comfortable with my son's driving and backing abilities with the car and trailer, I drove to the launch ramp, helped him launch the boat and then I drove home with the empty trailer. The plan was that about 4 hours later I would drive back to the launch ramp and pick him and the boat up. So, I had never driven any real distance with the trailer empty. The trailer is the standard Boatmate trailer, single axle, no swing away tongue, just the straight one. Here's the problem. The drive from the launch ramp to my home is about 20 miles of highway/city type driving. On the highway, while the trailer felt a little loose, it was no problem. However, several times toward the end of my journey, when braking to come to a stop, from about the 20-10mph range down to the final stop, the trailer would begin to buck violently, enough to actually shake the entire car (a 2wd Ford Explorer). It scared the devil out of me and my wife. After it did it the first time, I began driving much slower and trying to ease into braking, but that seemed to actually make it worse. We were able to get home and immediately called the dealer to find out what to do. The service manager tried to be helpful, but basically he indicated that the trailers were not meant to be towed long distances without the weight of the boat on them; that the trailer brakes were activating and we were experiencing "brake chatter". He said he had gotten a lot of complaints about this. He said that the way the trailer worked was the trailer brakes were engaging as they were supposed to, but because the trailer was empty, the brakes on the trailer engaged as if they were stopping the fully weighted trailer which would then cause the trailer to buck. He indicated that there really was nothing that could be done, but suggested that I deinflate the tires approx. 10 psi below the psi posted on the tires, that that would help. I asked him if as I braked, if I released my car brakes would that release the trailer brake. His answer was no, that the trailer brakes are activated by the coupler on the tongue, that as the trailer pushes toward the car, the coupler closes and engages the trailer brakes (i.e., they are not at all activated by my car's brakes).

For the return trip, I did deflate the tires to about 50psi. I also decided that as approaching a stop, I would brake hard, then release and ease up to the stop. That seemed to be better. One thing of note was that when the trailer was bucking, I could see in the mirrors that the wheels were rolling - the first time it did it I was afraid that the trailer brakes had locked and the tires were just dragging and bouncing along the road, but that was not the case. Given that I was trying to control my car and praying the violent bucking was not going to just rip the trailer and my hitch off the car, I could not just constantly watch the tires to see if they were always rolling, but they did seem to be. I did not see any skid marks on the road and the tires did not seem to have any skid type indications on them. Also, I did verify that the hubs were still full of oil and intact.

So, has anyone else had this happen? Is this really just the way it is? If so, I will never tow this trailer any appreciable distance without the boat on it. With the boat on the trailer I have never had any problems at all. Please let me know.

[Yellowmobius]

One way you might get around this would be to flip your trailer light connector and turn on your parking lights, this will get power to the brake actuator and effectively disengage the brakes. It is hard to explain what I mean by flipping the connector over, you basically have the one pin that would not be connected. This will affect how the trailer lights work. It is the same thing you do to disengage the brakes if you do not have the 5th wire harness.

[Shoemaker Mobius]

Bruce,
I think I know what you mean, but I don't understand the impact and why I would need to turn on the parking lights. If I understand correctly, my trailer wire connector has 5 pins; the connector on my car has one male and four female connections on my 5 wire connector; the connector on the boat has one female and four male connections on the 5 wire connector. I am guessing that the single connection has something to do with the trailer brakes? So, if I turn one of the 5 wire connectors upside down that would mean I would only be able to plug in the four connections with one connection hanging off the plug. Correct? Also, I can see then that the four connections would be reversed (i.e., with the connectors aligned correctly, 1-2-3-4-5 would be connected to 1-2-3-4-5 with the 1 being the single plug). However, with one connector upside down, the connections would be 1 to nothing, 2 to 5, 3 to 4, 4 to 3, 5 to 2 and 1 to nothing. If that's correct, I don't see how the trailer lights would function anywhere near correctly. I am assuming that the main 4 pins connect left turn signal, right turn signal, brake lights and tail lights. If you changed the order, when you hit your left turn signal, wouldn't your tail lights or brake lights go on then and if you had your headlights on, wouldn't conceivably one of your turn signal lights on the trailer blink continuously? I'm nowhere near a mechanic or electrical guy, but it seems that just wouldn't work. Can you explain further??? Thanks.

[Yellowmobius]

Your understanding of what I mean by flipping the connector is correct.
I am not sure how the trailer lights will work, try it and see. It won't hurt anything, but they will not work correctly, obviously.

This is my understanding of how the brake actuator works.
When you back up or step on the brakes the actuator collapses and engages the brakes.
The key is "when you back up". When you back up the brakes are engaged without the 5th wire. The 5th wire gets power from your reverse light wire effectively disengaging the brakes. Try backing up with out your lights connected you will understand. When you filp the connector over you are lining the trailer marker light wire up with the brake disengage wire by turning your lights on you are powering the brake wire and disengaging it.

I had to do that when I first bought my boat because my truck only had a 4 wire connector and the salesman told me that is what I had to do. He actually said "they don't make a five wire connnector" The boatmate guys hooked me up!

Later

[Shoemaker Mobius]

Thanks, Bruce, that makes sense. Unfortunately, I just tried the flip and the results were that the car's left turn signal turns on the trailer's right turn signal and likewise the car's right turn signal turns on the trailer's left turn signal. The brake lights seem to work OK, but the the tail lights don't turn on when the headlights are on. Overall, the light reversal is probably as much of a hazard as the trailer itself. I took the boat and trailer in to the dealer today and he is going to inspect the brakes to make sure they are working correctly. Have you or anyone else had this problem with towing an empty trailer??

[Yellowmobius]

I have never towed empty.
With the connector flipped you won't get trailer lights because that power is now going to the brake and the blinkers being reversed sounds right.
You are right that is not the safest way to drive either.

[Wake Master]

You can also place the brake key in the trailer tounge to deactivate the trailer brakes. The one that came with the trailer will fall out easy, so you would need to find something to keep it in place. My dealer had a key that was kept in place by mounting over the top of the tounge

[carsondoc]

Shoe, I like Wake Master's idea for disengaging the trailer brakes on this one. You obviously don't need the trailer brakes when the boat's not on the trailer and they are probably the culprit. You just need to find a way to keep the key in there. (my first thought was duct tape--as always :-) )

Please let us know if you do this, how you secured the key, and how it worked. Definitely good info for all of us as I'm sure we'll all need to tow without the boat someday.

[Shoemaker Mobius]

Wake Master,
What is a "brake key"? I don't see a way to deactivate the brakes on the trailer. Can you give me more information?? Is it something that keeps the sliding part of the trailer tongue from sliding? It is my understanding that the trailer brakes are activated by the coupler sliding mechanism moving towards the car, thereby activating the brakes. That's why the 5th pin on the wiring coupler is energized by the backup lights on the car, thereby overriding the trailer brake activation so you can back the trailer up.

[Woopededoo]

You should of gotten the key when you got the boat. Looks like a the letter 'D" with a little piece sticking off the side of it. It fits in the side of the trailer tongue where that one bolt slides back and forth, making it not be able to move. Mine was in the moomba bag I got with my boat that had all the manuals and extra stuff for the boat.

However, I still havent figuered out how to used it correctly. It falls out way to easy. And if you use it to put the boat in the water, you could easily loose it in it in the water.


Since my truck does not have a 5th wire, only 4. I take the 5th plug on the trailer plug, and attach it to the 1st plug on the truck (the headlights). So, when I want to put my boat in the water (back it up). I swap the plug, turn on the headlights and back up. However, this will make all the lights/blinkers not work on the trailer. When I am ready to go home, I just put the plug back to normal, just leaving the 5th plug exposed. The brakes on the trailer work all the time, except when you put some power to them, then they disengage.

[Wake Master]

The key works as Woopededoo discribed. I had the same problem with it falling out and hooked up the 5th wire on my trailer so backing up is no longer a problem. The dealer had a key with a clip that went over the top of the tounge to hold it in place. You may be able to purchase these I have not tried. He towed the boats around his lot with a tractor so it was needed for him to back up. I would also think that duct tape may work.

[old geezer]

I knew it, duct tape could fix it!! LOL

[Shoemaker Mobius]

I spoke with the service manager at my dealer and he indicated they do not give the key to customers because it falls out.

[Lpfeil]

Shoe,

I also received the key in the Moomba bag with all the manuals. You should go back to your dealer and till him you want it . It's supplied with the boat and trailer for the purchaser not the dealers shop.

Larry

[dabs]

The "key" described is a 1" lockout used for emergency backing. It is not designed to cruise down the highway but rather to get you out of a bind should the backup solenoid fail to engage for any reason. If you get in a situation where you cannot back up you simply install the lockout device into the slot on the side of the outer member which keeps the inner member of the actuator from moving, thus prohibiting the master cylinder/pushrod action that enables the brakes. After backing up you remove the key and throw it back in your glove box. As far as energizing the backup solenoid by reversing the plug, this is a great way to ruin your backup solenoid and cause you even more grief. This solenoid is designed for incidental use such as during the backing process and energizing it for prolonged periods will burn it out. Let the dealer resolve your problem with the manufacturer and don't try to override systems built to keep you and others safe.

[BensonWdby]

For those of us without electric brakes the key is certainly the way to go. To keep it from falling completely off the trailer when you start moving forward I use a couple of 'tie wraps', you the things you use to bundle wires, and have it permanently lashed to the trailer. Works great, always falls out after you have been on the road in forward for just a bit, and has not shown any signs of degradation in 4 years of continuous exposure to over the road use. But I have never taped it in place because the furthest we ever haul without boat is about 2 miles, at highway speeds, with not problems.

[ARLINGTONMOBIUS]

A lot of what dabs said is correct. The type of coupler that Boatmate uses is a UFP surge brake actuator. It is a very simple concept. The inner slide, which has the coupler head on it is attached to a pushrod and a couple of shocks. When you stop or slow the tow vehicle, the weight of the trailer causes the inner slide on the coupler to push the pushrod into the master cylinder inside the coupler body. That is what actuates the brakes. There are 5 wires on the plug. The white wire which is the female on the trailer and male on the tow vehicle is the ground wire. Next to the ground should be the brown wire, which is the running lights. Next to the brown wire is the yellow wire, which is the left stop and turn wire. Next to the yellow is the green wire, which is the right stop and turn wire. The final wire is the red wire, which is hooked up to the reverse lights on the tow vehicle. The purpose of this is, when the tow vehicle goes into reverse, it sends power through that fifth wire to a solinoid in the coupler, which opens a bypass valve that allows the brake fluid to be diverted. That allows you to back up, which depresses the inner slide on the surge brake actuator, but does not activate the brakes.

I have experienced the same feeling, but only for a couple of miles. The reason the trailer bucks so bad, is because the weight of the trailer depresses the coupler and locks the tires. However, the weight of the trailer is not enough to make the tires slide, so the tire grab and make the trailer jump. The reason that the tires continue to rotate is, when the trailer tires leave the ground, it is allowing the coupler to disengage, and relieve the brake fluid from the brake cylinders. However, as soon as the tires hit pavement again, they almost immediately activate the surge brakes again, and the process starts over again. I manage a trailer parts distribution warehouse, and we sell several different types of actuators, and they all work the same.

The key that has been mentioned in these posts will not stay in the coupler, and would be very messy to keep in. If I were going to be towing my trailer empty, I would look into having something made that would keep the inner slide from moving, and would clip into that slide hole.

I may not have been helpful as a solution to the problem, but the information I have given might help you solve the problem. The good thing you have found out from this situation is that your brakes are working correctly.

Later,
Mike

[Shoemaker Mobius]

And so the saga continues. After I took my boat and trailer to the dealer, I spoke with Brian Raymond from Skier's Choice, who spoke to Owen at Boatmate. According to Owen, in early 2004, Boatmate realized they had a problem and added some type of mechanism that, when the trailer is empty, does something that makes the brake fluid flow slower so the brakes are depressed on the trailer much more gradually, thus not locking up the brakes. I was to get in touch with Owen last Monday and he would contact my dealer's service department to arrange to get the retrofit sent to them. I spoke with my service manager and he knew Owen and agreed to work it out directly with him. Sounds great, right? Well, after speaking with Owen, my service manager found out that my trailer already had the retrofit installed so there was some other problem. He and Owen were investigating something to do with the trailer shocks and he would get back to me. Last Friday, the service manager called and indicated that they found major damage to the axle and supporting pieces - so bad that the axle was actually moving several inches forward and back. He is waiting for replacement parts and will let me know when it is ready.

Here's my concern. This is a brand new boat and trailer in February 2004. We have approx. 65 hours on the boat. It has been trailered not more than 200 miles total on well paved roads only. Why is the trailer breaking down? I am concerned that the bucking we experienced with the empty trailer caused the damage and that when the damage is fixed, we'll still have the empty trailer problem. Any clues??

[ARLINGTONMOBIUS]

Shoe,
What they are telling you does not make sense. I help people diagnose trailer problems every day, and I don't understand how a torsion axle can move forward and backward. The way they attach would make that all but impossible. If you would like to, you can call me at work, and we can discuss. My work # is (817)468-2626.
Thanks,
Mike

I believe the "bucking" you were experiencing was caused by the caliper on the disc brake. Now that we know the true cause, a bearing failure due to insufficient oil in the hub, it stands to reason that once the bearing started to go, the rotor started to wobble. Since the brake pads ride on the rotor what you were feeling was a grabbing each time the rotor tried to exit the path of straight line, then releasing as it returned to center itself.

[dabs]

I am sure by now you must know the "bucking" that you were feeling was actually the brake pads grabbing the rotor as it traveled off it's path due to a bearing failure. Since the pads ride on the rotor, once the wobble started, the pads grabbed the rotor briefly until the rotor was in true line again. The actuator never was at fault and after you get the trailer back I'm sure you will agree that with or without the boat, the trailer brakes will do just what they were designed to do...stop the trailer.
Good Luck,
dabs

[Shoemaker Mobius]

So, here's what the current status is. The dealer service manager, working with the Boatmate folks determined that I had a bearing going bad which likewise damaged the rotor and calipers. All were replaced and I have the boat and trailer back now. Tomorrow, Sunday, my son will be taking the boat out alone again so I'll see if the empty towing is working now. However, I learned some very interesting things during this soapopera. First, I had a very revealing conversation with a very helpful person at Boatmate. They indicated that they have heard several complaints about the empty trailer problems, however, nowhere near as severe as what I experienced. The norm is that the slight bucking is a slight annoyance, but nothing like the severe bucking I experienced (I sure hope it was the bearing issue). They also indicated that Boatmate pulls empty trailers all the time. However, they ALWAYS lockout the brakes using a device that goes over the top of the trailer arm and fastens in place. They indicated that they would love to be able to just send me one, but because of the liability issues, they cannot. Also, the device has a large yellow sticker indicating for use only by the manufacturer or dealers. Their recommendation is that I use the brake lockout device (key) and tape it in place. For those that have not seen the key, here is a link to a photo album of mine called Boat Info - a picture of the key.

http://community.webshots.com/user/garyshoe

I also found out from ArlingtonMobius (thanks so much for your help), that in Texas at least, you can pull up to around a 4500lb trailer load legally without the trailer having brakes. Since the boat trailer, by itself weighs in the neighborhood of 1500lbs, I don't think towing it with the brakes locked out is any concern at all.

So, if anyone reading this would like to send a an anonymous package with one of the special lockout devices, I promise I will not not remember where it came from (Boatmate, wink wink). Worst case it sure would be nice to see a picture of one of them with the dimensions so we could make one up on our own. I don't like the idea of having to tape the little key in place.

[Shoemaker Mobius]

OK, so the bucking is still pretty bad. Not as bad as before, but enough that I can't believe towing that way is safe. I have now inserted the brake lockout key and duct taped it in place. I have added pictures of this in the below Boat Info album. Personally, I think Boatmate needs to fix this problem with a solid, safe method for locking out the brakes when towing empty.

http://community.webshots.com/user/garyshoe

[old geezer]

Here is a link to a manual valve would this help??

http://shop.easternmarine.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=catalog.prodInfo&productID=54 04&categoryID=155

[Shoemaker Mobius]

The saga continues. I taped the brake lockout key in place for my 10 mile return trip to the lake to pick up the boat. Unfortunately, it appears the brakes are not the complete issue. I noticed, prior to pulling out that if I went to the rear of the empty trailer and partially lifted the rear end of the trailer, while I did not lift the tires off the pavement, the entire trailer flexes like a diving board. So, I am pulling the trailer with brakes locked out and as I slow at a stoplight where the pavement is slightly bumpy, the trailer begins to buck up and down - not quite as violently as when, apparently the brakes were catching, but enough that the cars in back of me made it a point to get away from me. I believe it has to do with the fact that the trailer is long and has very little bracing, making the whole trailer like one big spring mechanism. With just a little bounce, the whole thing starts flexing and acting like a diving springboard. I am going to talk with Boatmate, but I sure don't know what to do about it. When the boat is on the trailer, the boat acts like a huge heavy brace so the trailer cannot flex like it does when empty - the only bounce coming from the trailer suspension. Empty appears to be a whole other story. I am at a complete loss as to what to do.

[Ktn_cmu]

Test

[Ktn_cmu]

Ok, what about this.

Since the problem is there is no power to the backup light wire to disengage the brakes, and giving that wire continuous power will burn up the solenoid. Could you splice the wire for the brake lights and hook that up to the reverse light spot on the trailer connector? That would give power to the reverse lockout solenoid only while braking, so you shouldn't burn anything up. Now, you would have to disconnect this wire when the boat was on the trailer.

If you got really fancy...you could run a wire from the fuse box to a switch on the dash and back to the trailer connector...hmmm...

Wha da ya think???

[Shoemaker Mobius]

I can very easily tape the brake lockout key in place which prevents the brakes from activating. However, as I said, the brakes don't seem to be the problem since I still had bucking with the brakes locked out.

[Summit_SS]

Ok first things first.

I have been reading these posts on this topic for a while now and I am really surprized that no one has given you a solution. Well I really don't have one for you either. I have heard of this happening before (one time). It was to my friend who pulled his fishing boat with a SINGLE axle trailer. When ever he towed the trailer with out the boat for a distance (in his case a few miles through town) it would hop and skip like mad. Well to make a long story short he ended up getting rid of the traile and going with a Tandem Axle......Solved all his problems. Not only did it pull better (both loaded and unloaded) but made backing a little easier as well (he wasn't the best in the world). So all the trouble your going through could be avoided by changing trailers...I know it cost money and that is something that all of use like to save.

As for the "spring board" action. This flex does not sound safe at all, my trailer (tandem axle) is as solid as a rock. Now it will move if I jump on it but that is just the suspension doing its job.

My advice to you is stop messing around with wiring this, this way or that way. All your going to do is hurt yourself in the long run. Look at getting a new trailer or at least have yours inspected by the dealer that you bought your boat form. The trailer might have a little flex but should not have the amount that your talking about.

[Shoemaker Mobius]

Summit_SS,
I have been working with the dealer and Boatmate on this from the beginning. The latest is that the folks at Boatmate, in conjunction with the folks at UFP (parts supplier), believe that the tires on the trailer may be out of round, hence the bucking at low speeds even when the brakes are locked out. Boatmate is sending out two new, balanced tires to try. If that doesn't work, they may switch out the complete axle. Ultimately, they are committed to fixing the problem up to and including swapping out for a new trailer. If that happens, they will allow me to pay an upgrade fee to go with a tandem axle trailer.

[Summit_SS]

Well that is great that they are working with you like that and I hope that it is just the tires out of round as you said..I just have one problem with that, if the tires were out of round then the trailer should buck all the time not just when you don't have it unloaded.

One very quick way to tell if they are out of round are to find a FLAT AND SMOOTH surface and role them individually. If they buck up and down (look at the top while the tire is rolling) then you should be able to see it. You could also take it to a local auto shop and have them put it on a tire balancer that would tell you too. But seing how they are seending you new tires that sounds like it would be fine too.

Hope you get it all worked out keep on posting on the topic....I want to know what the final conclusion is.

Thanks SUMMIT

[Shoemaker Mobius]

Another Installment: the new tires should arrive at the dealer soon and we'll swap the old ones out. However, I also posted this issue on the Wakeworld.com BB and one of the responses led to a very similar thread on the MasterCraft BB. The problems cited by many there sound very familiar. I mentioned that the bucking was very violent and frightening. Here is a quote from one person's posting in that thread

"We dropped our boat in and for the first time had to drive farther that just the parking lot. When my wife pulled up next to the lake house we had rented she was white and kids were crying. Please keep us up to date on what the fix should be!".

Here's one more

"Do not know what it is about the new trailer--but it sucks to pull without a boat. If I needed to panic stop towing the trailer it would be impossible. The trailer bucks so hard it actually pushes on the truck."

One thing that thread brought out was that the lockout key still allows about 1/8th to 1/4th play in the coupler that just might be enough to activate the brakes. I did see when the key was in place, there was about that space in the gap. I spoke with Boatmate and they are going to look at that also.

The good news about that thread is one person posted the below link where you can buy the dealer lockout device for my trailer. I called and ordered one today ($5.95 Canadian) - it is actually called a Dealer Lockout, part # 34551. It is on page 8 at the bottom right in the manual.

http://www.arrowtrailer.net/nss-folder/publicfolder/Axle Catalog 2.PDF

[Summit_SS]

I talked to my dealer yesterday about your problem and told him what the trailer guys were having you do. He showed me what they do around the shop. All it was, was that new dealer lockout key that was provided to you in the link you posted. He did say that he has had trouble with a few of those falling out (when hitting big bumps-ones that jolt the trailer really good) when your going long distances so to make sure that it is really secure. He also stated the same thing as i did earlier about the tires being out of round there fore the trailer should buck all the time but mysteries do happen he said.

So bet of luck....give us a post to see if the tires helped or not and if all you needed was the key

SUMMIT

First I can't believe that there hasn't been a better answer yet. Second there are 2 different lock out keys that the dealership uses. They have to backup boats all the time w/o the use of electricity and HAVE do someting different.

One is similar to the key shipped with your trailer. Its a "U" shapped mettal "strap" that fits in the "key" spot. The other is a replacement cap for your plastic cap on the top "arm" of your trailer.. This metal cap will turn about 15 degrees and will prevent your brakes from engaging. If you ask nicely you can get your dealer to get you one. I think i paid $10.00 (might have been $20.00) for mine. The dealerships are told not to sell them but they will if you come up with a convincing case and they perceive you to not be a liability issue (suing them failing you remembering to engage it at all other times).

Good luck. There is another way. If you are that interested in email me at [email protected] and I'll send ya a pic of the cap.

[vogues69]

Given that your dealer trusts that you're responsible and won't sue him if you forget, you might be able to talk him into selling you the "turnable cap" that goes on top of the arm of your trailer. Its metal and twists. You turn it about 45 degrees and it locks out your brakes. Mine was reluctant to sell me one, but someone jumped on my trailer, breaking the plastic cap that covers the parts. I pointed it out to him and he said "well i'm not suppose to sell these BUUuut .... Don't use it often and if you do use it, please remember to 'turn your brakes back on.' " It cost either $10 or $20. I never realized it could be such a hot item.

My Moomba is in the shop right now being winterized. A work trip is taking me out of town for the next week. When i get back I can Email ya a pic so you can see it. Send mail to my [email protected] and you'll see it in about 2 weeks.

[old geezer]

I have been watching this string with intrest. Did the braking problem get resloved? If so how.
Happy boating this summer

[beckman2713]

Has anyone come up with a better solution yet? I'm having the same exact problem with my brakes.

[Shoemaker Mobius]

I haven't posted in a long time, but while the dealer and boatmate went out of their way to help, the problem still exists. After repairing the trailer, replacing both wheels with new wheels, tires and balancing the combo, there is just too much flex in the trailer. With or without the lockout key, the trailer is just too bouncy when it doesn't have the 3,000 plus pound boat on it. When it is empy, you can lift on the rear end of the trailer and with very little effort get it bouncing up to a foot in the air. I just don't believe there is enough cross member support in the trailer. I don't know if this is a problem with all makes of heavy boat trailers, but I thiink it is a very serious, safety risk, bad design on the trailer. I am guessing a tandem axle trailer does not have the same issues. The only solution I have is we don't tow the trailer without the boat anymore.

[Shoemaker Mobius]

One more thing. I believe a tandem axle trailer ought to be the standard for a boat that weighs over 3,000 lbs. Why doesn't Skier's Choice step up and do that????

[beckman2713]

Good Idea on the Tandem...I should have opted for it. I made my own lock out key, so I'm going to try that. Thanks for the info.

[Tanners]

Find a big empty parking lot. Take your son and the boat out there on a Tuesday evening. Set up some cones and drive around all night. It's a blast. The next time he goes out with his buds you can follow them to the ramp instead of delivering them there. After a couple of times at that, you'll be sitting back and he'll be making that long walk up and down the boat ramp.

Plus - the boat stays on the trailer except for short runs up and down the ramp

I started my son when he was 11 years old. He's in his 20's now and is the best at any ramp, anywhere

Life is good