Ballast Upgrade on a Budget

[cab13367]

I wanted to upgrade my stock ballast system without drilling any additional holes in the boat, reusing as much of the stock stuff, and keep the cost down. I only run 1310 lbs of ballast (455x2 + 400) for wakeboarding and 1150 lbs for surfing (750x1 + 400) so I didn't want/need to go all out with three T-1200's on separate 1" intakes.

So this is what I decided to do:

- Replace stock 3/4" intake with 1". Use 1" tees and valves.
- Install one pump per bag - a Tsunami T800 for the starboard side rear locker, another T800 for the ski locker and the stock Rule 1200 gph pump for the port side locker since this is where we use the 750 lb sac (for surfing).
- Reuse 3/4" fill hoses for the T800's, use 1" fill hoses for the Rule since the Rule outlet is 1".

I did the install this past week and lake tested it today.

With the stock system, my fill times were:

- 14:55 for all three sacs (1310 lbs)
- 13:06 for just the 750 lb sac

With the upgraded system, my fill times improved to:

- 8:58 for all thee sacs (1310 lbs)
- 6:00 for just the 750 lb sac

Instead of using vented loops to prevent auto filling or auto draining at speed, I used brass swing check valves for the rear bag fill lines and just a looped hose for the front bag (admittedly, not as high a loop as I wanted) so I am having some issues with auto filling/auto draining that I need to sort through.

UPDATE: I installed a 3/4" Irritrol 700 Ultra Flow valve and this fixed my auto drain and auto fill issues with the front sac. See pg 5 of this post for pics and description.

Overall, I am super happy with the results, especially with the 6 minute fill time of the 750 surf sac!

Now for some pics:

This is the stock 3/4" intake. Note that it steps down from 1" so I did not have to enlarge the hole to install a new mushroom type 1" intake.
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg276/cab13367/IMG_6487-1.jpg

New 1" intake, 1" tee. and 1" full port ball valves installed. Note the 1" to 3/4" white plastic bushing installed on one of the valves to allow the 3/4" intake of the pumps to thread into.
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg276/cab13367/IMG_6490.jpg

Here you can see the Rule installed on the ball valve at the bottom of the pic, and a tee installed at the other ball valve with two T-800's attached to the tee. You can barely see the T-800 to the right of the tee, under the large raw water hose.
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg276/cab13367/IMG_6497.jpg

Here's a shot from the other end. You can see one T800 under the motor mount and another to the left under the large raw water hose.
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg276/cab13367/IMG_6506.jpg

[cab13367]

These are the brass swing check valves that I used. They are less than $9 each including the fittings compared to about $20 for the more common rubber check valves. But the main reason I went with the swing check valves is that they have a large orifice so it will have very little if any effect on the flow rate. I was having some auto draining issues with the valves mounted horizontally so I mounted them at an angle and that took care of the auto draining issues. See pg 5 of this thread for an updated pic.
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg276/cab13367/IMG_6505.jpg

Attwood Tsunami T-800 next to the stock Rule
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg276/cab13367/IMG_6491.jpg

Here are all the stock parts I pulled out. Maybe I'll bring this to the Oregon MiniJam and throw them in the bonfire :)
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg276/cab13367/IMG_6501.jpg

[aook23]

looks clean !!

[saskie99]

I was going to post a question just before i read your post, hahah. This is the same system I am going to put in. I was just curious about the 3/4 intake, but it is really a 1 inch that is stepped down. This is going to make my life so much easier. I really hate the sprinkler valves and the single intake pump. Thanks again!

[kaneboats]

Lookin' good, Al! More time to surf.

[offaxis82]

looks great! where did you find the brass swing check valves? have you had problems with autofill or drain with the rear sacks at all, or just the ski locker sack?

[viking]

Al,
All that brass and no leaks? :)
Must have been tight in there tightening everything down??
Came out real nice and clean! Great post!

[saskie99]

can anybody tell me if the stock scupper is a 1 inch, that I would be able to cut off the 3/4 part as in the picture and make it a the one inch so I don't have to change the fitting?

[brain_rinse]

can anybody tell me if the stock scupper is a 1 inch, that I would be able to cut off the 3/4 part as in the picture and make it a the one inch so I don't have to change the fitting?

The internal diameter is 3/4" all the way thru, so cutting it off at the taper wouldn't gain you anything unfortunately.

[brain_rinse]

Very nice upgrade, Al. That's a big drop in fill time.

I'm having good luck with my one-way check valves on the rear bags as well. Cheaper and easier than vented loops, that's for sure.

[moombadaze]

Al, nice job.

Thats just how my ballast fill upgrades started

[cab13367]

looks great! where did you find the brass swing check valves? have you had problems with autofill or drain with the rear sacks at all, or just the ski locker sack?

Found them at the local George Morlan plumbing supply store. Both sizes were about $7.50 each. Lowes also had them but I think their 1" was like $14. One thing to note about these is that you have to mount them at least 45 degrees from horizontal or water will leak past them. My pic shows them lying flat and water was auto draining back thru them. The swing check valve is simply a round metal gate that swings on a hinge above. So when the boat is in a nose up attitude, I think the gate is swinging open allowing water to pass thru. So they need to be either mounted vertically or at least a 45 degree angle to prevent this. Or just go with the rubber version but I found that those are not full bore and I can see how the rubber would wear out over time.

The rear bags did not autofill but they auto drained. The front bag both autofilled and autodrained. In fact, because the front bag is below water line, it autofilled even when just sitting still. I did not put anything on the fill line other than looping it up about a foot above the pump then down to the bag since I did not have a long enough hose to loop it higher. I am going to experiment with it a little more but I think I am going to have to put in a vented loop.


Al,
All that brass and no leaks? :)
Must have been tight in there tightening everything down??
Came out real nice and clean! Great post!

Yeah, it's definitely tight in there. I used both teflon tape and pipe dope at each brass to brass connection. The manifold sits so low that I had to remove the top part of the Rule pump, screw it on to the tee, then re-attach the body of the pump. I could not thread the pump on as the outlet would hit the bottom of the boat.


can anybody tell me if the stock scupper is a 1 inch, that I would be able to cut off the 3/4 part as in the picture and make it a the one inch so I don't have to change the fitting?

Like Brain says, it's 3/4 all the way through. Be sure to buy the thru hull from wakemakers. Theirs is combinatio thread - standard on the bottom and tapered (NPT) on top. This will allow you to get the tee fitting (which is NPT) nice and tight onto the thru hull. Regular thru hulls are standard thread and a tapered thread tee will only tighten down to about two or threads on a standard thread fitting and will go no further.

[cab13367]

BTW, as far as the electrical aspect, just cut the wires between the deutch connector and the solenoid then attach those to the corresponding T-800 pump. Be sure that you match the black wire from the harness with the black from the pump. For the Rule, just unplug the existing connector and plug it into what the port side solenoid valve used to plug into (if that is what you are using it for). No cutting of wires needed.

Then find the fuse panel under the dash and replace the 3 amp with a 5 amp for the T-800s and with a 10 amp for the Rule.

[cab13367]

Also, I made it a point to optimize water flow throughout. So I made sure to buy full port ball valves and eliminated all elbow fittings wherever possible. So for example, my T-800's came with elbow fittings at the pump outlet but I took those off and got straight fittings instead. I also bought straight quick connects at the sacs instead of 90 degree elbows. I also went with the swing check valves as they have a larger orifice thru the valve than the rubber check valves that I looked at. Finally, I routed the hoses to ensure the shortest hose runs possible.

[brain_rinse]

...Be sure to buy the thru hull from wakemakers. Theirs is combination thread - standard on the bottom and tapered (NPT) on top. This will allow you to get the tee fitting (which is NPT) nice and tight onto the thru hull. Regular thru hulls are standard thread and a tapered thread tee will only tighten down to about two or threads on a standard thread fitting and will go no further.
This is really important info. If anyone wants more on this topic this is the best writeup I've seen. http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/document.do?docId=538&title=Installing+Thru-Hull+Fittings+and+Valves+-+Groco

But if you want to keep it simple, just buy a combo thread thru-hull, don't cut it, and use all NPT after that.

[cab13367]

Thanks Brain. I saw that from one of your earlier posts and read thru it carefully, then decided to do what you did and get a combo thread thru hull so I could get maximum thread engagement with the tee since I was going to be hanging valves and pumps on both ends of the tee.

[jester]

Al,

That looks great. You are a master plummer now. Did you already have the pumps or did you buy them?

[saskie99]

Found them at the local George Morlan plumbing supply store. Both sizes were about $7.50 each. Lowes also had them but I think their 1" was like $14. One thing to note about these is that you have to mount them at least 45 degrees from horizontal or water will leak past them. My pic shows them lying flat and water was auto draining back thru them. The swing check valve is simply a round metal gate that swings on a hinge above. So when the boat is in a nose up attitude, I think the gate is swinging open allowing water to pass thru. So they need to be either mounted vertically or at least a 45 degree angle to prevent this. Or just go with the rubber version but I found that those are not full bore and I can see how the rubber would wear out over time.

The rear bags did not autofill but they auto drained. The front bag both autofilled and autodrained. In fact, because the front bag is below water line, it autofilled even when just sitting still. I did not put anything on the fill line other than looping it up about a foot above the pump then down to the bag since I did not have a long enough hose to loop it higher. I am going to experiment with it a little more but I think I am going to have to put in a vented loop.



Yeah, it's definitely tight in there. I used both teflon tape and pipe dope at each brass to brass connection. The manifold sits so low that I had to remove the top part of the Rule pump, screw it on to the tee, then re-attach the body of the pump. I could not thread the pump on as the outlet would hit the bottom of the boat.



Like Brain says, it's 3/4 all the way through. Be sure to buy the thru hull from wakemakers. Theirs is combinatio thread - standard on the bottom and tapered (NPT) on top. This will allow you to get the tee fitting (which is NPT) nice and tight onto the thru hull. Regular thru hulls are standard thread and a tapered thread tee will only tighten down to about two or threads on a standard thread fitting and will go no further.

great thanks for the heads up! I will contact wakemakers again, they never responded to my 1st email which was a week ago.

[cab13367]

Al,

That looks great. You are a master plummer now. Did you already have the pumps or did you buy them?

Thanks jester. No, not a master plumber by any means. More of a trial and error plumber :) I did not already have the pumps, bought them from wakemakers.


great thanks for the heads up! I will contact wakemakers again, they never responded to my 1st email which was a week ago.

Yeah, they are sometimes hard to get a hold off. They are local to me and Jason has been pretty good about returning calls within 24 hours. If I know what I want, I just call Spencer at Active Water Sports (AWS). He is the other owner of wakemakers but also works at AWS. Also, remember the coupon code when ordering online - it gets you 10% off. I think its moombaowners. Let me know if that's not right and I'll look it up.

[jester]

Al,

Was the New 1" intake just a unscrew the old, Pop it out and put in the new? where did you get this at? Also if you run all three pumps at a time do you have any issues with the pumps fighting for water?

[cab13367]

Al,

Was the New 1" intake just a unscrew the old, Pop it out and put in the new? where did you get this at? Also if you run all three pumps at a time do you have any issues with the pumps fighting for water?

Well, it was more like, unscrew and beat the crap out of the old, then install the new. The old scupper has 4 screws underneath in addition to the big nut from inside. The sealant would not give in easily so it took some force to finally dislodge the old intake. Plus, part of the gel coat stuck to the sealant and chipped off. I scrapped off all the old sealant with a sharp razor blade then installed the new one with a generous amount of 3M 5200 marine sealant.

Good question about the pumps starving for water. Next time I go out, I will disconnect the fill hoses at the sacs and turn all the hoses on and see if any of them are not producing full output. My guess is that yes, the output from the pumps with all three running will be less than with just one running. But even so, my fill time with all three pumps running reduced from about 15 minutes to about 9-1/2 minutes.

[jester]

Well, it was more like, unscrew and beat the crap out of the old, then install the new.

Al, Thanks for the update. I am not sure I like the "beat the crap" part of this upgrade. That is a nice drop in fill times for the system. You have now made me excited to upgrade my system from a GI to GIII using what you did for the fill pumps.

[cab13367]

Al, Thanks for the update. I am not sure I like the "beat the crap" part of this upgrade. That is a nice drop in fill times for the system. You have now made me excited to upgrade my system from a GI to GIII using what you did for the fill pumps.

Yeah, I wish that part would have gone better. I think my experience was worst that others. Seems like most others did not have that hard a time getting the old one off. Someone suggested heating the sealant first and that would probably have helped. I actually ended up sticking a thick, steel tube inside the fitting and then pushing it back and forth and eventually got one edge to let go. It was easy from there.

[moombadaze]

. Seems like most others did not have that hard a time getting the old one off. .

No you didnt. Mine is still on. Had all the 1" parts ready to go. :mad:

[cab13367]

No you didnt. Mine is still on. Had all the 1" parts ready to go. :mad:

Well, I stand corrected! Stacy, try sticking a strong steel rod of appropriate diameter and length in the thru hull from inside the boat and then push it fore and aft and left and right. This way, you are trying to break the seal on one side instead of beating on it downwards and trying to break it free all at once. I think heating it up first would also help.

[cab13367]

Update: I got out on the water today to do some further testing and resolve the autofill/autodrain issues. I modified the installation of the swing check valves on the fill lines to the rear bags so that they are at a 45 degree angle to horizontal and that did the trick - both rear bags no longer autodrain and they do not autofill.

The front bag is a different story. I don't have anything on the fill line, just hose, which I looped up just under the engine cover and down to the bag. I hoped that would fix both the autodrain and autofill issue that I was experiencing but it did not. It still autodrained at speed and autofilled at rest. So there's no way around it - I have to install a vented loop which I did when I got home. I mounted it up next to the ski pylon as high as I could, under the engine cover. That should take care of it.

I timed how long it took to fill all three bags again, at rest, with the engine off. And this time, it took exactly 8:58 whereas it took 9:27 during the initial test to fill 1310 lbs of ballast. I considered a bag full when water would come out of the drain fitting at which time I turned that pump off. With the stock system, it took 14:55.

I'll post up some pics when I get a chance to take some.

Al

[brain_rinse]

Thanks for the update, Al. I'm in a similar spot... rear check valves work great, front bags autofill/autodrain. The difference is that I already have the vented loops on them. Not only that, but they leak out out the top of the loops when filling.

[moombadaze]

Well, I stand corrected! Stacy, try sticking a strong steel rod of appropriate diameter and length in the thru hull from inside the boat and then push it fore and aft and left and right. This way, you are trying to break the seal on one side instead of beating on it downwards and trying to break it free all at once. I think heating it up first would also help.


Ive allready returned the 1" fittings so Im not going to mess with it. after cutting off the backside of the scoope I no longer auto fill.

[cab13367]

Thanks for the update, Al. I'm in a similar spot... rear check valves work great, front bags autofill/autodrain. The difference is that I already have the vented loops on them. Not only that, but they leak out out the top of the loops when filling.

So the vented loop is not fixing either issue? Where do you have it mounted? Did you call Jason at wakemakers to find out what he recommends?

The interesting thing is that initially, the front sac did not auto fill - I turned each pump on when I first put the boat in the water to make sure they were all primed and there was water in the fill hose all the way to the bag. Then I drove at 25 mph and looked all three fill hoses (there were no bags attached to any of them) and no water was coming out of each one so I thought I was good. Then, after I filled the bags and started emptying them, I noticed the front bag was taking a long time to empty. I suspected that it was autofilling while at rest so I dicsonnected the fill hose at the front bag and sure enough, water was coming out of it. I think that when I hit the empty switch, it created a suction/siphoning effect and was drawing water thu the pump, up and over the looped hose and into the bag.

That also sucks that the vented loop leaks while filling as I just mounted them above some electrical connectors so I think I better remount them somewhere else.

[kaneboats]

I'm glad you're figuring all this out for me, Al. Thanks!

[cab13367]

I'm glad you're figuring all this out for me, Al. Thanks!

My pleasure Kane :) I'm going to have the boat on the water Thurs thru Sunday so I'll have this sorted out by Monday.

[brain_rinse]

So the vented loop is not fixing either issue? Where do you have it mounted? Did you call Jason at wakemakers to find out what he recommends?

Sadly the vented loops aren't working for me. I have the loop for the ski locker mounted by the ski pylon and the loop for the bow sac is up under the helm. The pumps push water out through the top of the loops, even with them completely tightened down. Doesn't stop the autofill/autodrain either. I haven't been able to reach wakemakers yet - hopefully tomorrow.

[cab13367]

Sadly the vented loops aren't working for me. I have the loop for the ski locker mounted by the ski pylon and the loop for the bow sac is up under the helm. The pumps push water out through the top of the loops, even with them completely tightened down. Doesn't stop the autofill/autodrain either. I haven't been able to reach wakemakers yet - hopefully tomorrow.

I'm not liking that at all. If my vented loop doesn't work and/or spews water while filling, I am just going to go get an Irritrol valve and be done with it. Since the front bag is smaller than the rears and it wouldn't have to pump water uphill if I put an Irritrol valve in, it will still fill faster than the rear bags anyway.

[newty]

Brain, if the vented loops can be dissasembled take them apart and look and see if there are any burrs on the ball or cap. I'll bet there is something preventing the ball from seating. Plastic molded stuff like that always has little burrs that the factory doesn't bother to remove. Use an exacto knife to clean them up. That may fix your problem.

[brain_rinse]

Brain, if the vented loops can be dissasembled take them apart and look and see if there are any burrs on the ball or cap. I'll bet there is something preventing the ball from seating. Plastic molded stuff like that always has little burrs that the factory doesn't bother to remove. Use an exacto knife to clean them up. That may fix your problem.
Good idea, though I must have a different type of loop. Mine has an internal rubber piece that is seated by a threaded cap.

[cab13367]

Mine has an internal rubber piece that is seated by a threaded cap.

I think they are all like that.

Based on your experience, Dan, I abandoned the vented loop for the front and put in a 3/4" Irritrol 700 series Ultra Flow valve. I did not want to deal with spewing water AND still have possible auto fill/drain problems. The valve is a sure thing and I am willing to live with a little restriction to the front bag since it is the smallest of the three and so it should still fill faster than one of the rear bags.

The Irritrol was $25 and the irrigation place I bought it from says it is the most expensive 3/4" irrigation valve they sell. The 3/4" vented loop was $27. Can you say overpriced??

I'll post up some pics later as well as the results from the on water testing after the weekend.

Al

[brain_rinse]

I talked with Jason at WM and he hasn't seen issues like I'm having with the loops before. Going to do a couple of tests tonight to try to figure out what is wrong. They prefer the brand of 3/4" loops over what they have for 1" loops, so maybe that is some of it. I'm sorry that my bad luck with loops changed your plans, Al. Once I get it figured out I'll post back in this thread.

[cab13367]

I talked with Jason at WM and he hasn't seen issues like I'm having with the loops before. Going to do a couple of tests tonight to try to figure out what is wrong. They prefer the brand of 3/4" loops over what they have for 1" loops, so maybe that is some of it. I'm sorry that my bad luck with loops changed your plans, Al. Once I get it figured out I'll post back in this thread.

No worries Dan. I never liked the concept of the vented loop anyway so I'm good with the Irritrol for my particular situation. If I was running an 1100 in the front locker or feeding a bow bag in series with the 400, then I would probably have tried to make the vented loop work.

Yeah, I'm thinking you have some defective loops. On mine, if I cover one end and blow real hard on the other, I can't get air to go out the vent. But when I suck instead of blow, air pretty easily comes in thru the vent so it appears to be working as intended.

Let us know what you find out.

Al

[kaneboats]

I abandoned the vented loop for the front and put in a 3/4" Irritrol 700 series Ultra Flow valve. I did not want to deal with spewing water AND still have possible auto fill/drain problems. The valve is a sure thing and I am willing to live with a little restriction to the front bag since it is the smallest of the three and so it should still fill faster than one of the rear bags.

The Irritrol was $25 and the irrigation place I bought it from says it is the most expensive 3/4" irrigation valve they sell.

Al

I think I'm with you on this being that it's the smallest bag and fills very quickly anyway. Can you tell me what kind of "irrigation place" you purchased this from?

[jester]

- Replace stock 3/4" intake with 1". Use 1" tees and valves.



Al, Did you have to dill to make the hole bigger when you did this or was it big enough for the 1 inch intake?

[stretch55]

Al, Did you have to dill to make the hole bigger when you did this or was it big enough for the 1 inch intake?

Jester, it is a 1" intake hole and the intake/scupper is reduced to 3/4".

[cab13367]

I think I'm with you on this being that it's the smallest bag and fills very quickly anyway. Can you tell me what kind of "irrigation place" you purchased this from?

It's called Horizon. I went to Irritrol's website and searched distributors in my area.


Al, Did you have to dill to make the hole bigger when you did this or was it big enough for the 1 inch intake?

No, as stretch said, the hole is already 1".

[kaneboats]

Duh! Thanks! There's 5 of them in town.

[cab13367]

So I thought I would close the book on this upgrade. On the rear sacs, I used brass swing check valves mounted on an angle as shown below. I have no auto fill and no auto draining issues with this setup. Note that one valve is larger than the other as I am using the stock Rule with 1" fill hose to the port locker and a T-800 with the stock 3/4" fill hose to the starboard locker.
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg276/cab13367/IMG_6782.jpg


On the front sac, I went with a 3/4" Irritrol 700 Series Ultra Flow valve which I mounted where the stock sprinkler manifold used to be. This fixed the auto drain and autofill issues I was previously having. With the Irritrol valve, I no longer have any auto drain or auto fill issues. One thing about the Irritrol is that with the manual lever in the "Off" position, meaning that the valve is opened and closed with the switch activated solenoid, the valve would only allow water to pass thru for a few seconds then would shut off. I think this is because the solenoid is 24V and so it is unable to hold the valve open. However, with the switch in the "On" position, meaning the valve is always in the open position, there is just enough resistance in the valve mechanism to prevent auto filling and since it's a one way valve, it does not allow water to auto drain from the bag. So basically, it's acting like a check valve. I didn't even need to hook up the electrical to the solenoid and it would have worked just fine.

I did some testing and the Irritrol did reduce the flow from 409 gph to 329 gph when compared to straight hose. But I can live with that since the front bag is the smallest of the three and still fills before the starboard rear bag (the port rear bag bag fills first since it's being fed by the stock Rule 1200 gph thru 1" hose).
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg276/cab13367/IMG_6783.jpg
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg276/cab13367/IMG_6779.jpg

[jester]

Al, Looks great. Good to hear your issues are solved. Where did you get all of your parts from?

[cab13367]

Al, Looks great. Good to hear your issues are solved. Where did you get all of your parts from?

Thanks. Got the parts at a number of places - the pumps, thru hull intake, and 1" quick connects from wakemakers (they are local to me), the swing check valves from a local plumbing store, the shut off valves and the rest of the brass and plastic fittings and the 3M marine sealant from Home Depot and Lowes.

[jester]

Al,

Was the 1" thru haul fiting the link below? If it was what did you do about the old screw holes? Also you can no longer drive to push water into the pumps so how do you prime the pumps or is this a non issue?

http://www.wakemakers.com/bronze-thru-hull-intake-1.html

[cab13367]

Al,

Was the 1" thru haul fiting the link below? If it was what did you do about the old screw holes? Also you can no longer drive to push water into the pumps so how do you prime the pumps or is this a non issue?

http://www.wakemakers.com/bronze-thru-hull-intake-1.html

That's the one although mine didn't have the set screw. Make sure its combination thread.

I don't have any problems priming the pumps. I mounted them as low as possible and well below water line so water is forced up through the fittings and into the pumps before u ever turn the switch on.

I filled the screw holes with the 3m sealant I used for the thru hull then put the screws back in.

[jester]

Al,

One more question and I think I will be done. with the T800 pump the inlet thread is much shorter then the ones i just got from Wakemakers. Did you take a saw and cut it down?

[Aquaholic]

Does anyone know if the Chrome thru hulls that are 3/4 will work for the 1 inch hose?

[cab13367]

Al,

One more question and I think I will be done. with the T800 pump the inlet thread is much shorter then the ones i just got from Wakemakers. Did you take a saw and cut it down?

Yes, I did.